[sandin]

Thought I'd start a thread on what business people think of the current Sean Quinn debacle.
It seems to be a very one sided debate with a lot of the hirearchy in the banking / judicial / legal field very negative to him and what he has been doing.



My opinion is that there is a lot of stuff still to be uncovered. I don't believe that Sean Quinn is a brilliant businessman, but he was brilliant at developing a business and wasn't afraid to get the right people in to grow the business. I would say he was a visionary in his field and that his weak point was that he put too much trust into some people and whilst it worked out for most things, some people took advantage.


I think it was very strange that for someone who diversified his business so much that when he played the stock market it was a one way gamble of Anglo Irish Bank. That to me is totally out of character for someone who spread his vision from cement to glass to insurance to pubs to golf clubs to hotels and even radiators.

Sean Quinn claims that he was suckered into the gamble by Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irihs Bank. This is the same Sean Fitpatrick that most people blame for the current crisis. It is also the same Sean Fitzpatrick that is before the courts on serious fraud offences and the same Sean Fitzpatrick who went on to the Late Late Show just after the last set of Anglo Irish Ban accounts were published and brazenly said that deposits in the bank had "increased" in the previous quarter and that the bank was very healthy and had no issues whatsoever with liquidity and that the stated deposits showed that there was no run on the bank and that all the rumors in financial circles were fasle.

The shares in Anglo jumped after thos results and jumped again afer that interview. Sean Fitzpatrick knew damn well that he was telling a bunch of lies and that his bank was on the way down the plug hole and had been for the previous 12 months. Yet to save himself he convinced Sean Quinn that everythign was rosey and the gamble could not lose. He also convinced many others who bought shares in the period after the false accounts and who believed the claptrap he spouted on the late late show.


Whereas Sean Quinn continued at that time to expand his businesses and continued to create jobs.

Sorry, but I think Sean Quinn has been treated dreadfully by the legal system in Ireland and only hope that one day he will clear his name.


note - all statements above regarding Sean Fitzpatrick are verifiable and in the public domain. Also, I have never purchased Anglo shares nor ever had any delaing with Anglo Irish Bank nor and Quinn related company with exception of having insurance policies with Quinn Direct.

[ontour2]

The Quinn family were adventurous, innovative and hard working. They created thousands of jobs and the loyalty that they are receiving is not surprising. I am not convinced that they did bring in the necessary skills to manage the empire that they had built. They would have benefited from expertise in governance, risk and compliance and financial management guidance.

They bet the house on Anglo and lost and certainly there may have been an element of being duped in to it. I find it difficult to fathom that they put themselves forward as the captains of industry in their business areas but play the poor innocent country fool in their dealings with Anglo. Having said that I expect them to win a case against Anglo in the future.

What dissappoints me about the Quinns is that they should accept that they gambled and lost, give up the money they are hiding and start again. They built an empire once and they could do it again if they got over their bitterness and misdirected energies.

[Peterdalkey]

Clearly “Quinnspin” works. I am frankly amazed at how many people have been takin in by the plight of a man who was clearly out of control, a veritable megalomaniac who gambled the lot on trying to get control of a bank. He lost and now thinks he should not have to pay. His prior business practices were clearly more than dubious with some extraordinary financial engineering moves to forgive intercompany debt and enrich his family. It is no coincidence that many of his "family" investments were in the murky zones of the former USSR where the rule of law is down to individual interpretation.

If you look at the major business that Quinn was involved in, he sought to dominate in those sectors by predatory pricing to capture market share at any price. A child could build a business if they just went into any market and cut any price by 10%..........as Quinn has now learned, it is not a business model with a long future!

In addition to the Anglo gambling bill left behind, he bled Quinn Insurance to prop up his group by raping the cash out of that business and has left us all with another 1 Billion to pick up on his behalf over the next twenty years in insurance levies.

Quinn is far from alone, the Treasury Boys, Brian O’Donnell, Paddy Kelly, Paddy Shovlin, Bernard McNamara , Liam Carroll, Dunner, Drumm , Fingers, Seanie, ... the list goes on and on
These empire builders who obviously saw themselves as masters of the universe have badly tainted the reputation of all of us who run businesses. The mass of debt left behind by these guys will be paid by our children and our children’s children, but Quinn seems to still believe that his kids should keep their incomes and personal wealth. Ah God love him, the man is not well in the head. He should seek advice from Pee Flynn.

[I am pie]

History will look at Mr Quinn in the same light as any of the other pre-crisis ponzi scheme operators. He ran an insurance company with insufficient reserves, and a pricing model which any other organisation would view as predatory and extremely short sighted. The foundations were built on sand, and we know how that parable pans out. Risk was not adequately covered by premium reserve, to the point that it became illegal, at that point some of the risk transfers to the customers as they risk not receiving compensation for claims.

The subsequent transfer of equity from insurance company to anglo and anglo loan for shares scandal again were illegal and completely in line with the maniacal actions of a ponzi scheme operator.

Quinn acted illegally and was afforded the opportunity to hand over assets. The he chose to believe he is above the law of the land and keep hold of his assets highlights how much he lost touch with reality.

History will not judge him kindly in a personal and professional context. When you transfer risk out of your company and onto the tax payer you deserve the punishment handed out in court.

I'm amazed at the parish pump mentality on display in some section of the border counties in relation to the disgraced Quinn group. The jobs they celebrate are now on a solid footing thanks to Liberty insurance, that's who they should be trumpeting and rallying around !

[smeharg]

Originally Posted by Peterdalkey

... He lost and now thinks he should not have to pay.

He has paid - he has lost the entire Quinn Group. Probably worth more than Anglo's claims over him and his family.

Originally Posted by Peterdalkey

...
If you look at the major business that Quinn was involved in, he sought to dominate in those sectors by predatory pricing to capture market share at any price. A child could build a business if they just went into any market and cut any price by 10%..........as Quinn has now learned, it is not a business model with a long future!

Last time I looked all those businesses were still operating. Any child may be able to cut prices to gain market share, but it takes something else to keep the costs down, and sustain the lower price.

Originally Posted by Peterdalkey

...
Quinn is far from alone, the Treasury Boys, Brian O’Donnell, Paddy Kelly, Paddy Shovlin, Bernard McNamara , Liam Carroll, Dunner, Drumm , Fingers, Seanie, ... the list goes on and on

There is one marked difference between Sean Quinn and those people you list: Sean Quinn created sustainable employment.

I can understand why Sean Quinn has such support in the Border area. One just needs to take a drive from Ballyconnell to Derrylin to see what I mean. This area, which was blighted by the troubles in the years when Sean Quinn was investing and building his businesses, would be derelict now if it wasn't for his vision.

But it's difficult, maybe impossible, to reconcile that with his actions over the past year and the findings of the High Court.

The media now seem to be implying that Sean Quinn's "investment" in Anglo is what brought about its collapse and consequently the entire Irish banking sector and economy. That is just not true. Anglo believed at the time that its share price was driven down by Sean Quinn's CFD holding ,but the reality was the construction sector was contracting and Anglo was over exposed to it.

The Irish economy was too concentrated on one sector and the Irish banks too heavily exposed to that sector. When that sector collapsed the whole thing spiralled out of control.

What concerns me is the apparent disconnect between state bodies: Anglo on one hand fighting a court battle with the Quinn family over the disputed €2.8 bn in loans; and the ODCE on the other seemingly at odds with Anglo's stance by prosecuting the people that issued those loans. If ODCE is successful what impact will that have on the Anglo/Quinn case?

Quinn tried to work with Anglo - Anglo refused to cooperate. If those loans were for property development they would have been transferred to Nama and everything would be rosy. But they weren't. Instead Anglo insisted on giving Sean Quinn a life sentence in the form of a 12 year bankruptcy - what benefit will Anglo actually get from that? Perhaps Sean Quinn would have started another business, created more employment, but we'll probably never know.

In Sean Quinn's defence I think it is very easy for all of us to make statements about his wrongdoing etc etc. But until we're in the situation where we've lost almost everything we don't know how we'd react. Most people, I would suggest, would do everything within their power to protect what they believe is theirs. How far one would take that depends on the resources they have at their disposal and how they can justify their actions to themselves. What is moral and ethical to one person, is not always so to the next.

[Peterdalkey]

Originally Posted by smeharg

He has paid - he has lost the entire Quinn Group. Probably worth more than Anglo's claims over him and his family.



Last time I looked all those businesses were still operating. Any child may be able to cut prices to gain market share, but it takes something else to keep the costs down, and sustain the lower price.



There is one marked difference between Sean Quinn and those people you list: Sean Quinn created sustainable employment.

I can understand why Sean Quinn has such support in the Border area. One just needs to take a drive from Ballyconnell to Derrylin to see what I mean. This area, which was blighted by the troubles in the years when Sean Quinn was investing and building his businesses, would be derelict now if it wasn't for his vision.

But it's difficult, maybe impossible, to reconcile that with his actions over the past year and the findings of the High Court.

The media now seem to be implying that Sean Quinn's "investment" in Anglo is what brought about its collapse and consequently the entire Irish banking sector and economy. That is just not true. Anglo believed at the time that its share price was driven down by Sean Quinn's CFD holding ,but the reality was the construction sector was contracting and Anglo was over exposed to it.

The Irish economy was too concentrated on one sector and the Irish banks too heavily exposed to that sector. When that sector collapsed the whole thing spiralled out of control.

What concerns me is the apparent disconnect between state bodies: Anglo on one hand fighting a court battle with the Quinn family over the disputed €2.8 bn in loans; and the ODCE on the other seemingly at odds with Anglo's stance by prosecuting the people that issued those loans. If ODCE is successful what impact will that have on the Anglo/Quinn case?

Quinn tried to work with Anglo - Anglo refused to cooperate. If those loans were for property development they would have been transferred to Nama and everything would be rosy. But they weren't. Instead Anglo insisted on giving Sean Quinn a life sentence in the form of a 12 year bankruptcy - what benefit will Anglo actually get from that? Perhaps Sean Quinn would have started another business, created more employment, but we'll probably never know.

In Sean Quinn's defence I think it is very easy for all of us to make statements about his wrongdoing etc etc. But until we're in the situation where we've lost almost everything we don't know how we'd react. Most people, I would suggest, would do everything within their power to protect what they believe is theirs. How far one would take that depends on the resources they have at their disposal and how they can justify their actions to themselves. What is moral and ethical to one person, is not always so to the next.

The Quinn empire was a ball of smoke run by a crazed greedy man who got found out and now has to face the truth. I suspect the facts will never get in the way of those too blind to see. Smoke gets in their eyes?

[I am pie]

Originally Posted by smeharg

Last time I looked all those businesses were still operating. Any child may be able to cut prices to gain market share, but it takes something else to keep the costs down, and sustain the lower price.


There is one marked difference between Sean Quinn and those people you list: Sean Quinn created sustainable employment.

Nonsense.

They are operating because they have been taken over by competent operator able to work within the constraint of law. Quinn's companies were completely unsustainable as they operated illegally and with short term pricing models and unacepptable risk transfer / risk management policies. He kept the costs down not keeping enough premium reserves to cover the risks insured, this isn't a business master stroke, it's illegal and immoral.

Quinn was destroying what he had created on sandstone foundations.

Only in Ireland would we celebrate this, parish pump imbecility leads us to do so.

In the US he would already be in jail.

[I am pie]

Originally Posted by smeharg

What is moral and ethical to one person, is not always so to the next.

Which is why we have the rule of law, which applies to everyone. No amount of mealy mouthed nonsense excuses Mr Quinn from prosecution.

[smeharg]

Originally Posted by I am pie

Nonsense.

They are operating because they have been taken over by competent operator able to work within the constraint of law. Quinn's companies were completely unsustainable as they operated illegally and with short term pricing models and unacepptable risk transfer / risk management policies. He kept the costs down not keeping enough premium reserves to cover the risks insured, this isn't a business master stroke, it's illegal and immoral.

Quinn was destroying what he had created on sandstone foundations.

Only in Ireland would we celebrate this, parish pump imbecility leads us to do so.

In the US he would already be in jail.

Quinn insurance was one business in the Quinn Group.

As far as I know none of the Quinn Group companies has gone out of business.

What is celebrated is the jobs he created. Jobs that are still there.

[Tow]

Originally Posted by sandin

Sean Quinn claims that he was suckered into the gamble by Sean Fitzpatrick of Anglo Irihs Bank. This is the same Sean Fitpatrick that most people blame for the current crisis.

If you read Anglo Republic, you will see that Fitzpatrick and Co did not want any one person to own more than a couple of percent of Anglo and they had a fit when they found out how much Quinn had bought.

[I am pie]

Originally Posted by smeharg

Quinn insurance was one business in the Quinn Group.

As far as I know none of the Quinn Group companies has gone out of business.

What is celebrated is the jobs he created. Jobs that are still there.

He created jobs, ran an illegal and immoral insurance company and blew the lot on an illegal share deal with anglo aimed at enriching himself, leaves the Irish taxpayer with billions of debt and yet we should celebrate him?

We should celebrate the day he goes to jail.

[smeharg]

Originally Posted by I am pie

He created jobs, ran an illegal and immoral insurance company and blew the lot on an illegal share deal with anglo aimed at enriching himself, leaves the Irish taxpayer with billions of debt and yet we should celebrate him?

We should celebrate the day he goes to jail.

Perhaps. If the insurance company was so "illegal and immoral" it would've been wound down. Instead it was acquired by a global brand that stated at handover that it would turn a profit within 6 months.

Having said that, as another poster suggested, he may not have got the right people in with the skills required to run an insurance company. It's my opinion that he thought he could run his insurance business like he did his cement and other businesses, which you can't do with a regulated entity.

I think you need to educate yourself on the Anglo "share deal". The purpose of that arrangement was to unwind Sean Quinn's CFD holding in Anglo. Far from enriching himself it burdoned him and his family with €2.8bn in debt and ultimately left him bankrupt.

The Quinn supporters may have blinkered view of the situation and I've tried to explain that stance. That blinkered view is clearly balanced by your equally narrow view.

[sandin]

Some interesting views and good debate.

I think the financial iregularities in the insurance arm cam after the gamble on Anglo. Prior to that he ran a vary large and diversified company.

I just can't see how the whole direction changed from mass diversification to suddenly gambling everything on one single entity.

Possibly it was siblings/nephews that came in and changed the game, possibly he was fooled by Anglo, possibly he just an an eureka moment.

I do believe there is a lot of stuff no-one has heard. I also believe that the justice system here is quite fair and the shennanigans with hiding the assets was not right and need to be undone - but there's something underneath all this that needs to be unraveled and it is going to be a very interesting case to follow. Its just with Sean Fitzpatrick involved, I would be very suspicious of taking everything written to date as gospel as in my opinion Sean Fitzpatrick was more cunning than Charlie Haughey & Bertie Aherne combined.

If Sean Quinn ever writes a book, it will be interesting reading.

[Hammertime]

Originally Posted by sandin

If Sean Quinn ever writes a book, it will be interesting reading.

but would you actually believe a word of it?

[sandin]

Originally Posted by Hammertime

but would you actually believe a word of it?

Dunno - but it would be more they way he was thinking at the time and the thought process of suddenly going from wide diversification to gambling everything on one horse.

Of course if it worked he would have hit paydirt, but with all the hedge funds betting against Anglo and Sean Fitzpatrick having inside knowledge there's just something fishy about the whole thing. And whilst I doubt if Sean Quinn is the sint he claims he is, his history prior to getting involved with Anglo just doesn't add up and therefore I would lend some credence to his claims that he is a fall guy for something that is a lot bigger.