[foggy_lad]

Originally Posted by Del2005

You do know that if the Gardaí ask for your name and you don't have any ID they can detain you till they are satisfied you are who you claim you are. Not carrying ID just means that you spend quality time with our police force while some scumbag is getting away with a proper crime.

A national ID card won't make any difference, since you need to carry ID now and most people are already carrying several forms of ID either in bank cards or driving licence

They would of course have to have some reason to ask your name and to detain you apart from just checking your identity, if the suspected you of involvement in some crime for example. otherwise they would have some good tangible reason to doubt who you claim to be.

[bk]

Originally Posted by Del2005

You do know that if the Gardaí ask for your name and you don't have any ID they can detain you till they are satisfied you are who you claim you are.

I think this is a good thing and should continue even if we end up getting some sort of passport id card.

The time it takes stops Gardai from randomly and frivolously asking people for their id.

The Gardai would only take you back to the station if you actually committed a crime. Which is as it should be. You shouldn't be required to reveal your id just for any reason.

[Finnbar01]

Do people think that ID cards should be mandatory? And what do you think should happen if you refuse to carry one with you?

[bk]

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

Do people think that ID cards should be mandatory? And what do you think should happen if you refuse to carry one with you?

No and nothing.

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

Do people think that ID cards should be mandatory? And what do you think should happen if you refuse to carry one with you?

I believe they should be, as they are in dozens of other developed countries. The penalty should be in the form of being detained until you can prove your identity tbh.

In Germany you must register a change of address within 7 days at the new town hall. Your national ID card (Ausweis) is then altered with a stamped sticker with your new address on it. This card is valid for travel inside the EU and for most if not all day to day ID needs in Germany, including signing of contracts etc. Can't really think of any reason you'd need a passport unless travelling outside the EEA.

Your driving licence is seperate. It proves your right to drive, nothing more, so it has no address on it and it never expires.

You theh have a "health card" with a picture and chip on it which you use to access medical care. It proves you are insured under the system but is and always will be a stand alone card, given the sensitive nature of some of the data that can be stored on it.

The ID card is very useful here because it must be cureent. When you want to open a bank account you don't need this utility bill or that. You just bring your ID card and that's it.

As a foreigner in Germany from a country that has no ID cards, I have to use my passport and copy of registration of address to collect post from the post office etc. It is really annoying that we have no national ID card tbh.

The only people who have any civil liberties issues to fear are scumbags. A national ID card would help the cops target the real criminals and quickly identify those who pose no threat (99% of us).

[Finnbar01]

Originally Posted by murphaph

I believe they should be, as they are in dozens of other developed countries. The penalty should be in the form of being detained until you can prove your identity tbh.

So if I'm doing nothing wrong I should be imprisoned until I prove who I am? I think it is sinister and immoral for the state to suggest that you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

The only people who have any civil liberties issues to fear are scumbags. A national ID card would help the cops target the real criminals and quickly identify those who pose no threat (99% of us).

This is the nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide fallacious arguement. There are plenty of things I wish to hide or more aptly, keep private. In countries where they have ID cards, they still have criminals.

Then we have the whole notion of gardaí going on power trips to contend with.

[murphaph]

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

So if I'm doing nothing wrong I should be imprisoned until I prove who I am? I think it is sinister and immoral for the state to suggest that you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

You're not being asked to prove your innocence, just who you are! Do you think the Gardai should have the right to stop a "tracksuit wearing gentleman" walking around a housing estate at 3am "just looking up at the alarm boxes" for example? He's doing absolutely nothing illegal but personally I would prefer it if a patrol car could stop him for ONE MINUTE and verify his identity, just in case anything "might" happen that night. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

What if the same gentleman had just burgled your house and was sticking the key of your BMW 7 series in the lock (ok, pressing the remote) and the guards cruised by and knew full well sometthing wasn't right with this picture, but the guy doesn't appear to be breaking any laws (getting into an expensive car with the key at 3am whilst wearing a tracksuit, fred perry top and burberry cap is not in itself illegal) so they keep going. How would you feel about that situation? They respected the guy's civil liberties to the last, but your motor is now being stripped for parts, never to be seen again.

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

This is the nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide fallacious arguement. There are plenty of things I wish to hide or more aptly, keep private. In countries where they have ID cards, they still have criminals.

They do have criminals in Germany but crime and especially crimes against the person are much rarer here (and in Ireland I believe quite firmly that crime is under reported as people have no faith in the system).

ID cards make life easier on citizen, when combined with compulsory registration of abode. If someone owes you a debt and "does a bunk" in Ireland, it's actually really hard to find where they've gone. Not so here.

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

Then we have the whole notion of gardaí going on power trips to contend with.

I've never been asked for ID by a German cop, depite them having the powers to do so. We entrust the police with certain powers over us as it is. We have a constitution to protect us from abuse of those powers. We just have to make sure that the checks are in place. If we take civil liberties to extremes, we should realistically reject all law and order and any attempts to impose it on us. Random drink driving checkpoints? Civil liberties issue?

[seamus]

Originally Posted by Finnbar01

So if I'm doing nothing wrong I should be imprisoned until I prove who I am? I think it is sinister and immoral for the state to suggest that you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

As it is at present, if a Garda has reasonable suspicion, he can ask you to identify yourself and detain you if he's not satisfied as to your identity.

I don't think that national ID cards should be mandatory as in essence then a Garda could arrest you and detain you for nothing more than failing to identify yourself, but in an ideal world you would only be asked to produce your ID if you had been stopped for a good reason.

Is there a halfway house - make it mandatory to carry an ID card but it's only an offence if the Garda can show good reason for stopping you? I can't see Gardai wasting their time inventing reasons to hassle people for ID cards, but I equally can't see the type of "citizen" that ID cards target as being any more likely to carry them in case they're stopped.
Which basically means that you're targetting law-abiding citizens and gaining practically nothing in terms of law enforcement.

[bk]

The problem is if you make it a requirement to carry it, a national id card will never happen. Irish people are just to opposed to the whole concept of required national id cards.

Better to make it optional but very convenient to have * and continue with the current system where a Garda can detain you if he isn't satisfied with whatever ID you do show him when asked.

* Make it required for accessing all public services, etc.

[eth0]

DOWN with that sort of thing!

[Finnbar01]

Originally Posted by murphaph

You're not being asked to prove your innocence, just who you are!

It is the same thing.

Do you think the Gardai should have the right to stop a "tracksuit wearing gentleman" walking around a housing estate at 3am "just looking up at the alarm boxes" for example?

Yes I think the gardaí have ever right to stop and question him because they have reasonable cause that he's up to no good.

He's doing absolutely nothing illegal but personally I would prefer it if a patrol car could stop him for ONE MINUTE and verify his identity, just in case anything "might" happen that night. Prevention is better than cure and all that.

And if he has an ID card they just let him carry on?

What if the same gentleman had just burgled your house and was sticking the key of your BMW 7 series in the lock (ok, pressing the remote) and the guards cruised by and knew full well sometthing wasn't right with this picture, but the guy doesn't appear to be breaking any laws (getting into an expensive car with the key at 3am whilst wearing a tracksuit, fred perry top and burberry cap is not in itself illegal) so they keep going. How would you feel about that situation? They respected the guy's civil liberties to the last, but your motor is now being stripped for parts, never to be seen again.

Again the gardaí, if they suspected something wasn't right, would have every reason to stop and question him.

They do have criminals in Germany but crime and especially crimes against the person are much rarer here (and in Ireland I believe quite firmly that crime is under reported as people have no faith in the system).

Maybe crime is lower because the German courts are more severe in their sentencing? I don't know for sure.

ID cards make life easier on citizen, when combined with compulsory registration of abode. If someone owes you a debt and "does a bunk" in Ireland, it's actually really hard to find where they've gone. Not so here.

If you want ID go for it, I just don't want it too be mandatory.

I've never been asked for ID by a German cop, depite them having the powers to do so. We entrust the police with certain powers over us as it is. We have a constitution to protect us from abuse of those powers. We just have to make sure that the checks are in place. If we take civil liberties to extremes, we should realistically reject all law and order and any attempts to impose it on us. Random drink driving checkpoints? Civil liberties issue?

We have examples of people in authority abusing their positions and gettting away with it. I do not trust Irish authorities with rolling out an ID card system. I would not trust the gardaí with policing this.

[Stonewolf]

I've had Gardai stop and question me when out for a walk at night in a nice neighbourhood, there is nothing that not having a national identity card prevents them from doing except perhaps conclusively identifying people they've arrested immediately (and it's in such persons bests interests to cooperate in identifying themselves anyway).

I'm not in favour of mandatory national ID cards but I do agree with optional ones. I want one bloody number that I can take to any arm of the government I need to and just give them that. No need to fill out yet again all of the 100,001 details they already have on me just to get some service.