[floggg]

Maybe I should have phrases it better. While you may understand inequality as a concept, do you understand what it feels like to be unequal?

P.S. I'm not trying to be critical. I just mean its hard to understand something you haven't experienced for yourself.

[Conor30]

Originally Posted by DubArk

Because it’s like we’re in some Sub Section on Civil Rights issues. It sounds like we can have some of our rights but not all of them but in time they may come our way if we wait. I’m sick of waiting. We should be entitled to the same rights as any citizen no matter what colour, creed, gender or sexual orientation. All of us should be in the eyes of our state completely Equal. This is such an important issue to me and many others in same sex relationships.

I am a second class citizen in my own country and the people who live next door to me have more rights than me! Why? Because…. I fell in love with another human that happens to be the same sex as me. People have a problem with that, that’s the bottom line. That’s why the state mustn’t allow us to be treated any differently and as long as they still do they're condoning the bigots. It’s all about inclusion not segregation.

Well said. And we pay the same taxes so why should we have the same rights too?!

[Conor30]

Originally Posted by djk1000

Thanks for the help all, very informative.

Embarrassing to say but no matter how well read or educated, if you're a straight white middle class male, sometimes issues around inequality can be hard to truly understand, since there is no context or first hand experience. I often find that those lobbying for equality (not just marriage equality) tend not to explain it well to people like me.

Hope I didn't offend along the way!

D.

No harm. At least you're informing yourself! Gays deserve the same right to be as equally miserable in marriage as their straight counterparts!

[stephen_n]

Originally Posted by oisindoyle

What dont you agree with? My point is straight people have equality therefore its not an issue for them ,whereas gay people are lookig for equality

There are plenty of straight people that don't have equality for various reasons! Gay people are not the only ones who are discriminated against!

[MagicMarker]

Originally Posted by stephen_n

There are plenty of straight people that don't have equality for various reasons! Gay people are not the only ones who are discriminated against!

Check out the name of the forum you're in and the topic being discussed and you'll realise that oisindoyle is referring to the fact that straight people can marry as they please. What oisindoyle is not saying is that there is that there is no discrimination outside the LGBT community, which is what you seem to think he is saying.

[Aurongroove]

yeah, for example, if gay people could undergo a state marriage (like athiest couples do) then that would be equal rights.

[Chuchoter]

Originally Posted by stephen_n

There are plenty of straight people that don't have equality for various reasons! Gay people are not the only ones who are discriminated against!

Everytime I hear someone say that I literally want to set myself on fire. Could you possibly miss the point more than you just did?

In any case, I think gay marriage is a symbol more than anything else. If we get it, it means at least in a legal sense, we are equal. I know that doesn't reflect the day to day experience of most gay people, I know it doesn't make up for the systematic erasure people experience and the microaggressions in everyday life, but it reflects a society that at least in theory, recognizes we are people and are relationships are as valuable as theirs.

HOWEVER, I do take issue with the blinkered approach of the gay rights movement as it tends to be led and made up of largely middle class, white gay men. I'm sure its not done on purpose, but it totally ignores trans rights, it ignores the imbalances of power within the community, it ignores the problems of gay youth and it ignores the massive health problems from substance abuse to sexual health to access to education. I'm worried that when gay marriage eventually passes, people will become complacent and 'straight society' will be sick of listening to us complaining.

[stephen_n]

Originally Posted by MagicMarker

Check out the name of the forum you're in and the topic being discussed and you'll realise that oisindoyle is referring to the fact that straight people can marry as they please. What oisindoyle is not saying is that there is that there is no discrimination outside the LGBT community, which is what you seem to think he is saying.

I am well aware of the name on the forum but clearly you are not aware of context!

[mango salsa]

Originally Posted by Chuchoter

HOWEVER, I do take issue with the blinkered approach of the gay rights movement as it tends to be led and made up of largely middle class, white gay men. I'm sure its not done on purpose, but it totally ignores trans rights, it ignores the imbalances of power within the community, it ignores the problems of gay youth and it ignores the massive health problems from substance abuse to sexual health to access to education. I'm worried that when gay marriage eventually passes, people will become complacent and 'straight society' will be sick of listening to us complaining.

I kind of agree with you but there are lots of women involved in rights groups such as Marriage Equality, LGBT Noise, NLGF and in many other groups

The main gay rights organisation GLEN is you are quite correct mainly white middle class non disabled men.

[stephen_n]

Originally Posted by Chuchoter

Everytime I hear someone say that I literally want to set myself on fire. Could you possibly miss the point more than you just did?

.

The point is that, someone who is straight comes on with a valid question and gets attacked because some people believe, they have a monopoly on descrimination. The point is that if you really want equality dismissing people out of hand who try and understand that, is surely not the best approach.

[Captain Graphite]

Originally Posted by djk1000

Embarrassing to say but no matter how well read or educated, if you're a straight white middle class male, sometimes issues around inequality can be hard to truly understand, since there is no context or first hand experience. I often find that those lobbying for equality (not just marriage equality) tend not to explain it well to people like me.

Y'know, sometimes when I see references to the "straight white middle class able-bodied male" on forums like this it annoys me, because there's almost an underlying implication that someone fitting this description is supposed to feel guilty about who they are. Sure, Johnny Straight White Upper Class Male may not face inequality or discrimination at any deep level, but he could have a million and one other health/financial/family problems that no-one on this forum faces. But none of this is ever taken to consideration when it comes to LGBT issues; instead a whole misguided "us vs. them" attitude forms.

Just because someone may not experience inequality doesn't mean that they're ignorant of it. Like I'm white but I can obviously see that racism is wrong without having to experience it (which I did a little when I was in China!) So don't feel like you have to explain and justify not being a minority, or feel anyway guilty about that!

Hope I didn't offend along the way!

D.

Again, don't be apologetic for simply asking questions. If anyone took any offence from your posts then they are simply the kind of person who actively looks for things to get offended about.

Originally Posted by Chuchoter

HOWEVER, I do take issue with the blinkered approach of the gay rights movement as it tends to be led and made up of largely middle class, white gay men. I'm sure its not done on purpose, but it totally ignores trans rights, it ignores the imbalances of power within the community, it ignores the problems of gay youth and it ignores the massive health problems from substance abuse to sexual health to access to education. I'm worried that when gay marriage eventually passes, people will become complacent and 'straight society' will be sick of listening to us complaining.

Are you suggesting that white middle class gay men shouldn't be allowed to be concerned about issues that affect them? That they should abandon fighting for things like marriage equality because they're just not oppressed enough to bother listening to? The whole "I'm more discriminated against than you are" one-upmanship really pisses me off. It's got to the stage where everytime I see the word privilege I, as you say, "literally want to set myself on fire."

As far as trans rights goes, there's not always complete overlap between LGB issues and T issues, so it can't be that surprising that organisations like GLEN will have different focus from, say, TENI. It's not like a big bad group of white gay men are gagging trans rights groups and banning them from speaking out! As for gay youth, in this country at least there are loads of organisations out there that can offer advice and support to young people in need, and all their contact details are much more publicised and easier to find than 10 years ago.

Plus there was the whole It Gets Better thing....but of course that was mainly established by *gasp* a white male, so it's essentially worthless right?!

Originally Posted by mango salsa

The main gay rights organisation GLEN is you are quite correct mainly white middle class non disabled men.

I don't know too much about GLEN but I fail to see any problem with that whatsoever, unless they explicitly discourage others not fitting that description from joining. If the organisation is mostly made up of straight white middle-class non-disabled men, then maybe the reason for that is that more white middle-class non-disabled men actually got off their asses and joined than other groups of people.

Besides, going solely on statistics, I can't imagine there are too many non-Caucasian, working class, disabled lesbians in Ireland!

[oisindoyle]

Originally Posted by stephen_n

The point is that, someone who is straight comes on with a valid question and gets attacked because some people believe, they have a monopoly on descrimination. The point is that if you really want equality dismissing people out of hand who try and understand that, is surely not the best approach.

With the greatest of respect but it seems you are not reading this thread at all .

No one "attacked " the OP whatsoever,he asked a question and many responded ,no where were the responses an attack on his question .

Your comment "because some people believe they have a monopoly on discrinmination" is just laughable and beggars belief

Yes we want equality but again NO ONE dismissed the OP question .

Perhaps you should re read the whole thread again

[mistress_gi]

If you don't know ask and that is what the OP did, well done! this will give people an opportunity to not only explain the issues but also their position! Excellent thread

[stephen_n]

Originally Posted by oisindoyle

Well firstly I and most gay people prefer to call it MARRIAGE EQUALITY not GAY MARRIAGE...I just had my lunch a few minutes ago I dodnt have a "gay lunch"..
Bit surprised to be hoest with your question ,,,it comes across as "sure the gays have civil partnership what more do they want ",,,

Well as I said we want what YOU HAVE ,,,EQUALITY ,,,its that simple ..

Why is it an issue ? well I would have thought equality IS a major issue ..

Theres a HUGE difference between marriage and CP theres something like 160 differences ,,,dont ask me to name them all, maybe go to the marriage equality website and have a look ...

Marriage isnt all about relegion ,,there are many many hetrosexual couples who have civil marriages,thats what I want and theres nothing wrong with that .
Marriage equality is a civil matter not a religious one

I would say that the first highlighted part including the need to shout is hostile.

Clearly you didn't read what the OP posted for the second reply I have highlighted, he was asking why the one issue (marriage) on the spectrum of equality for gay people ranked so importantly and you ignore that. The question was not why equality is important but the first half of your reply chooses to ignore that and go on the attack.

Originally Posted by oisindoyle

Theres nothing emotive about wanting equality .
Equality is not an issue for straight people but it is for gay people ,surely thats important ? Can you not see that ?

Do I need to pint out whats wrong here?

Originally Posted by oisindoyle

With the greatest of respect but it seems you are not reading this thread at all .

No one "attacked " the OP whatsoever,he asked a question and many responded ,no where were the responses an attack on his question .

Your comment "because some people believe they have a monopoly on discrinmination" is just laughable and beggars belief

Yes we want equality but again NO ONE dismissed the OP question .

Perhaps you should re read the whole thread again

See above!

[mango salsa]

Originally Posted by Captain Graphite

I don't know too much about GLEN but I fail to see any problem with that whatsoever, unless they explicitly discourage others not fitting that description from joining. If the organisation is mostly made up of straight white middle-class non-disabled men, then maybe the reason for that is that more white middle-class non-disabled men actually got off their asses and joined than other groups of people.

Besides, going solely on statistics, I can't imagine there are too many non-Caucasian, working class, disabled lesbians in Ireland!

It's an EQUALITY organisation that purports to represent LGB people with regard to EQUALITY issues. I'm sorry but I don't happen to think that an organisation that is mainly made up of a few middle class men and that does not encourage broader participation fully understands the concepts of equality; What about gender proofing and poverty proofing of civil partnership and marriage laws? What about the fact that actually the 2008 survey showed that most LGBT in Ireland felt that workplace equality and community safety were much more important than marriage equality?

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/marriage-...burning-issue/

There have been and are women involved in GLEN but we shouldn't overlook that there has also been a lot of disquiet from women who have resigned from their board

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/lesbian-a...as-milking-it/

Silly comments about there being very few "non-Caucasian, working class, disabled lesbians in Ireland" do nothing to prove your point

There are plenty of working class gay men for whom poverty is an issue.