[mango salsa]

Originally Posted by darkman2

In the last 3 years? I don't deny good work is going on but I think that is fanciful.

Well Belong to has existed for nearly 10 years and yes in the last 3 years there has been a seechange in attitudes and this can be clearly seen in the amount of people using the service

BeLonG To’s National Network of LGBT youth groups grew from eight groups to 14, the largest since BeLonG To’s inception in 2003, with new groups opening in Sligo, Mayo, Tallaght, Kilkenny, Tralee and Wexford.

In Dublin, 20% more young people accessed BeLonG To services between 2010 and 2011.

Outside Dublin, 53% more young people accessed BeLonG To services between 2010 and 2011.

264% more young people in Ireland accessed BeLonG To services between 2008 and 2011.

Outside Dublin, 311% more young people accessed the BeLonG To National Network between 2008 and 2011.

[sydthebeat]

If this were the case then the problem is with the bully and not the bullied. Its societies responsibility to teach the bully what's wrong... Not to make the bullied feel like they are in the wrong.

Its a valid question, but not a valid viewpoint.

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by alan1990

less than perfect situation!!

The tangible effect of that will be seen in the school, not at home IMO (and it is only my opinion). What worry's me even more is that some seem to think that Ireland has suddenly become this hugely enlightened society overnight. Which is blatantly not true. For example I am not long out of school and people who maybe have not been in school for 10 or more years are automatically telling me i'm wrong about attitudes that go in school.

I would say alot of students are not as enlightened as they seem to think. Some are. Some are great too btw.

[28064212]

Originally Posted by darkman2

"You're gay" and other homophobe derogatory terms are the single most common I heard and i'm not that long out of secondary school. I live in a posh enough area with plenty of enlightened students in my school. But if you were gay, and nobody ever said they were, you would have got slagged 100%. If your parents were gay you would have gotten much worse. This is the mentality in schools. Your dealing with kids and teenagers.

The most common I heard was a toss up between fat and speccy/four-eyes. Given that you're basing your theory on what happened in your school, does what was most common in my school not count?

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by 28064212

The most common I heard was a toss up between fat and speccy/four-eyes. Given that you're basing your theory on what happened in your school, does what was most common in my school not count?

When were you in school if you don't mind me asking? It's just I think your behind the curve of the standard of insults in school by about 30 years there (joking!)

[mango salsa]

Originally Posted by darkman2

Trust me it's a solid enough observation. You must know this? You must.

No-one is denying that kids will get bullied

What we are saying is

A; Your experience of your school is frankly not enough evidence for anything really (all it is just a few anecdotes from you)
B; Kids get bullied for all sorts of differences
C; The experiences of REAL children in families with gay parents is that they don't always get bullied because of their parents
D; Let's provide more education rather than allow bigotry to thrive

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by sydthebeat

Its a valid question, but not a valid viewpoint.

In your opinion. I actually think many would agree with me on this to varying degrees.

I am also aware this is the gay subforum so opinions are automatically going to stack against me in here. If I put in AH it would be much more balanced I think.

[iCosmopolis]

IMHO I think potentially opening up an extra pool of loving couples & homes to bring up children who might not have that opportunity would far outweigh any assumed threat of bullying due to the gender of their loving parents. There is so much diversity now in many kids backgrounds already-never mind being picked on for your lack of wealth,style or colouring, there'll always be something. And if having two loving parents,of any sex,is one..I just don't know

[Jernal]

Originally Posted by darkman2

In your opinion. I actually think many would agree with me on this to varying degrees.

I am also aware this is the gay subforum so opinions are automatically going to stack against me in here. If I put in AH it would be much more balanced I think.

The validity of your argument has nothing to do with how many people agree with it. It's purely a question of whether your argument is valid or not.

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by iCosmopolis

IMHO I think potentially opening up an extra pool of loving couples & homes to bring up children who might not have that opportunity would far outweigh any assumed threat of bullying due to the gender of their loving parents. There is so much diversity now in many kids backgrounds already-never mind being picked on for your lack of wealth,style or colouring, there'll always be something. And if having two loving parents,of any sex,is one..I just don't know

Nobody is going to disagree with that. I am not saying kids should not be adopted by gay parents.

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by Jernal

The validity of your argument has nothing to do with how many people agree with it. It's purely a question of whether your argument is valid or not.

It is valid. Why would it not be valid?

[28064212]

Originally Posted by darkman2

When were you in school if you don't mind me asking? It's just I think your behind the curve of the standard of insults in school by about 30 years there (joking!)

The fact that you think your personal experience in one school is somehow conclusive speaks volumes. I don't use personal experiences in general arguments because they're irrelevant. To reuse an old saying: "the plural of anecdote is not data"

But since you are using your single experience in one school, you haven't answered the question: Do other's experiences not count? If gay is a common insult in one school, and retard is more common in another, do we stop gays and people with disabilities from having kids? If we do a study of all the schools, how far down the list do we go? Top 3 grouping insults can't have kids? Top 5? And how do we keep the list updated? Yearly surveys, and then whichever insult tops the list, they can't have kids for the next 12 months?

Or, and this is just an absolutely bat-shit crazy idea, we don't let school-yard insults (most of which are whatever comes to a 7 year-old's mind when they're not distracted by the sand-pit) decide important legislation?

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by 28064212

The fact that you think your personal experience in one school is somehow conclusive speaks volumes. I don't use personal experiences in general arguments because they're irrelevant. To reuse an old saying: "the plural of anecdote is not data"

But since you are using your single experience in one school, you haven't answered the question: Do other's experiences not count? If gay is a common insult in one school, and retard is more common in another, do we stop gays and people with disabilities from having kids? If we do a study of all the schools, how far down the list do we go? Top 3 grouping insults can't have kids? Top 5? And how do we keep the list updated? Yearly surveys, and then whichever insult tops the list, they can't have kids for the next 12 months?

Or, and this is just an absolutely bat-shit crazy idea, we don't let school-yard insults (most of which are whatever comes to a 7 year-old's mind when they're not distracted by the sand-pit) decide important legislation?

I will answer that as soon as you give me an idea of when you left school. I think that is relevant here.

[mango salsa]

Originally Posted by darkman2

I will answer that as soon as you give me an idea of when you left school. I think that is relevant here.

It's really not relevant at all actually. You don't seem to understand that we are saying social policy decision making should be evidence based not based on anecdotes from your school.

[darkman2]

Originally Posted by 28064212

The fact that you think your personal experience in one school is somehow conclusive speaks volumes.

When have I said that? I am not saying that.