[Hyperbullet]

Originally Posted by cournioni

Randy's actions took the life of another man, and it is sickening to read someone on here saying that he should be a coward and run away from doing the right thing.

Highlighted in bold. You seem pretty sure he killed the guy in question.

[cournioni]

Originally Posted by Hyperbullet

Highlighted in bold. You seem pretty sure he killed the guy in question.

That still does not make him guilty of anything. That is up to the courts to decide on a number of factors.

Like I said, I have my views from the evidence that I have seen and I am able to form my own opinion on the matter.

[Hyperbullet]

Originally Posted by cournioni

That still does not make him guilty of anything. That is up to the courts to decide on a number of factors.

Like I said, I have my views from the evidence that I have seen and I am able to form my own opinion on the matter.

And you're well entitled to form an opinion. I'm just trying to understand the logic of thinking the guy is guilty when very little is known about the incident.

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Hyperbullet

I'm just trying to understand the logic of thinking the guy is guilty when very little is known about the incident.

Based on the evidence of the video posted above he, at the very least, contributed to the act of throwing the guy head first off the stage.

[cournioni]

Originally Posted by Hyperbullet

And you're well entitled to form an opinion. I'm just trying to understand the logic of thinking the guy is guilty when very little is known about the incident.

I don't think he's guilty. I'm leaving that up to the courts to decide because there is more to this than just the actions of Randy, there is also the actions of the guy who fell and security to take into account.

From the evidence that I have seen, Randy (with the help of another guy) has thrown a guy off stage, and the guy died from the injuries sustained by this fall. This has to be investigated.

Now, the post you have quoted from me was a reply to a ridiculous part of a post where the poster was suggesting that Randy should skip bail and let the Czech justice system chase him, which is not only wrong but it is very selfish and disrespectful to the victims family.

[Motley Crue]

Originally Posted by Malice

Based on the evidence of the video posted above he, at the very least, contributed to the act of throwing the guy head first off the stage.

Not forgetting, that is if this video actually shows that incident in question, there is no proof this is the actual video...and there is no proof this video will be used in any court for that reason.

Originally Posted by Malice

That's horseshit of the highest order. Being from the USA shouldn't entitle someone to duck facing up and justifying their actions. Are Czech laws less worthy than those from the USA somehow?

I didn't mean to imply that being from the US made him some kind of untouchable, and I apologise if that came across, but I did mean to imply that any country would protect their citizens and if Randy went to the US it would be unlikely he would get deported back.

I'm also not suggesting that he runs away from his responsibility, or is a coward, but I am thinking that if he was concerned (for one second) about any of this...or even knew of any of this...he would have avoided performing in the bloody country or even crossing continents into Europe. If, in 2010, there had been a case made which mentioned his name then surely something would have reached the band and they would have been made aware that it might not be a good idea to perform in Eastern Europe given the circumstances and the chances of a cross border Police force attempting to arrest him. By all accounts he was arrested, when he arrived in the country at the airport, and this itself indicates that it was a very well planned operation.

I don't know Lamb of God's flightplan, or schedule, someone from the Police would have had to obtain that information - possibly from the promoter, I don't know. Why could someone not have warned them, explicitly...if Randy felt for a moment he was guilty of anything in Europe or aware of any of this, surely he would have retired from performing music outside his home country, not even stepped off US soil. I assure you that this has totally blindsided the entire group, their legal team, their record label...and there was obviously some form of entrapment involved in gaining the information of their travel.

For that reason, no, I don't have faith in the Eastern European courts, and I think if he was tried in several other countries in the Western Hemisphere this case would be thrown out as being absurd.

Also, consider this, guilty or not....if he is found guilty by this court....his career, livelihood and very life is over. He may not be able to return home for 10 years (or even ever as US officials look very harshly upon ex-offenders coming back into the country). He may have to be imprisoned, in an Eastern European jail, until he is in his early 50s....and if he's found not guilty, he could decide that this experience has made him unwilling to tour again and that his career is over - his livelihood lost - and people saying that he had a good lawyer, and he got off because he is a musician, or an American....

If and when he manages to start his bail, he may have to give the US Consulate as his address, although I'm not sure if he can legally do that. I also don't know if the band (or Randy) have the money to put him up at an address in Europe for what could be months while they await the beginning of his trial.

I can't stress enough though that a manslaughter charge, to me, seems absolutely absurd

[cournioni]

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

I'm also not suggesting that he runs away from his responsibility, or is a coward, but I am thinking that if he was concerned (for one second) about any of this...or even knew of any of this...he would have avoided performing in the bloody country or even crossing continents into Europe. If, in 2010, there had been a case made which mentioned his name then surely something would have reached the band and they would have been made aware that it might not be a good idea to perform in Eastern Europe given the circumstances and the chances of a cross border Police force attempting to arrest him. By all accounts he was arrested, when he arrived in the country at the airport, and this itself indicates that it was a very well planned operation.

True he could have avoided travelling, but maybe he thought it had blown over, or maybe he knew about it and wanted to sort things out when he was there. This is something that neither you or I know the details of. I'd imagine that there was a good chance that he knew about what happened in 2010.

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

I don't know Lamb of God's flightplan, or schedule, someone from the Police would have had to obtain that information - possibly from the promoter, I don't know. Why could someone not have warned them, explicitly...if Randy felt for a moment he was guilty of anything in Europe or aware of any of this, surely he would have retired from performing music outside his home country, not even stepped off US soil. I assure you that this has totally blindsided the entire group, their legal team, their record label...and there was obviously some form of entrapment involved in gaining the information of their travel.

That could be the case, but it also might be a case of passport control on the watch for wanted individuals entering the Czech borders. I'd imagine that such high profile suspects for cases such as manslaughter would be a pretty high priority for Czech authorities. Again, we do not know the details of this.

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

For that reason, no, I don't have faith in the Eastern European courts, and I think if he was tried in several other countries in the Western Hemisphere this case would be thrown out as being absurd.

It might be thrown out in other countries if proper procedure had not been followed. However, the incident itself, if it is a case of Randy throwing someone off stage as the video suggests, it would certainly not be thrown out as being absurd in my opinion as there is still an element of unnecessary force and recklessness involved. It would at the very least, be brought to trial.

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

Also, consider this, guilty or not....if he is found guilty by this court....his career, livelihood and very life is over. He may not be able to return home for 10 years (or even ever as US officials look very harshly upon ex-offenders coming back into the country). He may have to be imprisoned, in an Eastern European jail, until he is in his early 50s....and if he's found not guilty, he could decide that this experience has made him unwilling to tour again and that his career is over - his livelihood lost - and people saying that he had a good lawyer, and he got off because he is a musician, or an American....

Unfortunately, that is the risk that you run when you forcibly throw somebody off stage.

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

I can't stress enough though that a manslaughter charge, to me, seems absolutely absurd.

That is fair enough, though others will disagree. I certainly wouldn't say anything as reckless as throwing someone off stage head first is absurd personally. That is your opinion and I respect that.

[Hyperbullet]

Originally Posted by Malice

Based on the evidence of the video posted above he, at the very least, contributed to the act of throwing the guy head first off the stage.

Your interpretation of head first is interesting. From looking at the video as the guy leaves the stage his feet are still under him, he's not going to land on his neck judging by that angle of the incident. But then again it's up to how you look at it.

Some of you seem to look at this as a straightforward case of manslaughter. There's a lot more to this than a grainy video and I think judgement should be reserved until all the evidence is brought forward.

[Mushy]

Based on that video, it looks like Randys part is minimal. He wouldnt have had the force to fling someone like that in that position. Its the bald guy who gets all the force in pushing him off the stage.

[Malice]

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

I didn't mean to imply that being from the US made him some kind of untouchable, and I apologise if that came across, but I did mean to imply that any country would protect their citizens and if Randy went to the US it would be unlikely he would get deported back.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Motley Crue

Why could someone not have warned them, explicitly...if Randy felt for a moment he was guilty of anything in Europe or aware of any of this, surely he would have retired from performing music outside his home country, not even stepped off US soil. I assure you that this has totally blindsided the entire group, their legal team, their record label...and there was obviously some form of entrapment involved in gaining the information of their travel.

For that reason, no, I don't have faith in the Eastern European courts, and I think if he was tried in several other countries in the Western Hemisphere this case would be thrown out as being absurd.

Never underestimate the arrogance of the USA especially when it comes to behaviour in and towards former Communist states. As for not having faith in Czech courts, why not?

Originally Posted by Hyperbullet

Your interpretation of head first is interesting.

It's not interesting, it's a fact. You might want to check out the definition of the phrase.

Originally Posted by Hyperbullet

Some of you seem to look at this as a straightforward case of manslaughter. There's a lot more to this than a grainy video and I think judgement should be reserved until all the evidence is brought forward.

Well I for one have made no such claim of it being straightforward and I don't think anyone else has. If we accept that the video is genuine and illustrative of what happened then the singer is guilty of some involvement in the concert-goer's death. Now, before you all jump on me the following are key points:

• The most force for the push of the stage comes from the security so the singer's involvement is minimal.
• The concert-goer should have had more sense than to try to get on stage 3 times.

[Hyperbullet]

Originally Posted by Malice

It's not interesting, it's a fact. You might want to check out the definition of the phrase.

Well I for one have made no such claim of it being straightforward and I don't think anyone else has. If we accept that the video is genuine and illustrative of what happened then the singer is guilty of some involvement in the concert-goer's death. Now, before you all jump on me the following are key points:

• The most force for the push of the stage comes from the security so the singer's involvement is minimal.
• The concert-goer should have had more sense than to try to get on stage 3 times.

First off regarding the definition of head first: No need to be patronising. I know what head first is, and I don't see him diving head first into the crowd. But if you do then that's your take on it.

And I don't think anyone will jump on you for the points you've made, you're totally right. I don't know what the guys obsession was with getting on the stage, and no one deserves to die at a gig. I'd just rather wait until more information about the guys injuries comes to light before forming any sort of opinion as to whether Blythe has a case to answer for. Has it been 100% confirmed that the lad involved died due to this incident?

[Motley Crue]

Originally Posted by Malice

Never underestimate the arrogance of the USA especially when it comes to behaviour in and towards former Communist states. As for not having faith in Czech courts, why not?

It might be mildly racist to suggest this, but personal opinion leads me to believe that this country is not yet purged of it's Soviet past, and that there is still an element of corrupt behaviour in the Legal System, or at least an Antiquated Design based on Soviet principles.

Now the same could be said for any country having an element of corrupt behaviour, so I accept that every system has a flaw, but in the case of the Czech courts and with him being a US citizen - and this being such a high profile case given his "stardom" I would imagine it could go one of two ways, either way to the extreme - either the case is abolished and Randy walks free or he is made an example of as more of a political protest and is given the maximum sentence.

I hope, for his sake, the American Government does something.

Meanwhile, I understand what you're saying about the force with which that video shows both the lead vocalist of the band and the security guard appearing to be throwing an individual from the stage, but (if that actually is the video which shows the very incident in question) then there has to be a certain amount of blame taken from the individual. And, yes, I understand he's dead. But he made the choice to climb on that stage, on more than one occasion, and he made the choice to rush the lead singer when he was in the middle of a performance.

I've personally been to almost 200 concerts or thereabouts, not once, in any venue did I ever feel the need to climb upon the stage and rush the singer. Since I, like this individual, don't drink at gigs or take drugs (he apparently didn't drink at all at this one or take any drugs) then we have to accept that this young man made this decision of sound mind and body and knew exactly what he was doing. On all three occasions on which he did it. After the first two times in which he climbed the stage and was ejected, he chose to do it again, of his own mind and choosing. For that reason he has to accept a certain amount of consequence from knowing his actions.

Will the venue manager or owner also be prosecuted for the stage set up? It's a big fall and I would cite a health and safety risk too, I believe if Randy is to blame, so too are the owners of the building and the Fire Marshall who signed that off as safe when holding these kind of concerts. What about anyone who chose not to catch him as he fell from the stage?

Will they too be prosecuted if identified. Surely if they had caught him he wouldn't have sustained such injuries.

You might see this as being stubborn but I have to look at this from the point of view of him being a performer, with a mindset of "sing the songs, perform for the fans, do the gig" and forgetting little else on stage...take this example, Robb Flynn doesn't notice Phil Demmel has collapsed for at least 20 seconds (Demmel's out, his guitar is off, but yet the drums, vocals, lead guitar and bass keep going)...why, because Robb's in the zone, and he's going through the motions.

And, I'm afraid, I happen to agree that if someone rushes the stage during a performance they shouldn't be there. Especially if a person whose first language isn't English rushes an American, post Dimebag, after that event....the American guy is in a strange city, he makes a snap decision, get this guy the **** out of my space...and that costs him. And that's "if" it can be proven that he was the very one who applied the most force in the throw.

[Hyperbullet]

More footage from the gig. Maybe the guy died from landing head first in this perhaps?

http://www.thegauntlet.com/article/5...auntlet.com%29

[Motley Crue]

OK, having seen more evidence, I have to quote something else from the article HyperBullet has mentioned above

Czech press was reporting a toxicology report and alcohol test done and Daniel tested negative, but they were wrong. Neither was conducted so neither exists.

If the gentlemen was intoxicated then this obviously contributed to his decision to climb the stage on all occassions.

Plus, if the Internet has interferred with this case, what else has been compromised. We now simply can't assume that this young man wasn't possibly on some form of drugs....

[Hyperbullet]

The only reason I posted that link was for the footage. I'm not too sure if the rest of the article is entirely factual. But based on the footage, that first body slam from the security guard looks bad.