31-05-2012, 20:20 #31 GarIT Registered User     Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,359 Has anyone here thought about the amount of trouble there would be if the LUAS ran late? Its bad enough on the LUAS at 10pm, could you imagine 2:30am. They could probably need armed security as well as cleaners on every tram.
 31-05-2012, 20:22 #32 Boulevardier Registered User   Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 701 Losty or LX, can you tell me if you have any ideas for changes to Dublin's public transport, which you consider feasible, other than those which are being implemented?
31-05-2012, 20:30   #33
GarIT
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 Originally Posted by Boulevardier Losty or LX, can you tell me if you have any ideas for changes to Dublin's public transport, which you consider feasible, other than those which are being implemented?
I'm not either of them but I will answer. They should use accurate mathematical formula to review the bus timetables of each route every month. That way you could calculate a timetable where there is never a bus anywhere less than half full and never a case where a bus is full and someone is at a stop.

Using maths you could estimate at what time exactly a bus will end up say 3/4 full and send a bus out at that time. Rather have a bus from Maynooth every 30 mins where there aren't enough buses in the morning, where there might be 10 people on the bus during the day and where there are still buses every 30 mins into town at half 11 at night where on some buses there might only be one person. I was the only person on a bus from Maynooth to city centre once.

31-05-2012, 20:47   #34
lxflyer
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 Originally Posted by Boulevardier Losty or LX, can you tell me if you have any ideas for changes to Dublin's public transport, which you consider feasible, other than those which are being implemented?
Realistically we are still in the middle of the implementation of the single biggest change to Dublin transport for years - the Dublin Bus Network Direct programme. That frankly is what needed to happen - a bus service with regular interval departures on routes, corridor co-ordinated timetables, and elimination of unnecessary duplication of routes and routes that were carrying thin air.

I'd like to see that project completed and then stand back and assess how the service is operating before contemplating further changes.

I'm not really sure what you are looking for?

I have to be honest with you, there is no public money in the pot for investing in large volumes of new routes, or expanded operating hours. Much and all as I'd like to see expanded services I have to be realistic about the lack of funds. There may be scope for some limited expansion such as the additional orbital services planned under Network Direct, but it will all boil down to funding being available.

Public transport costs money to provide - if the government is not prepared to pay then the scope for expansion is very limited.

31-05-2012, 20:53   #35
lxflyer
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 Originally Posted by GarIT I'm not either of them but I will answer. They should use accurate mathematical formula to review the bus timetables of each route every month. That way you could calculate a timetable where there is never a bus anywhere less than half full and never a case where a bus is full and someone is at a stop. Using maths you could estimate at what time exactly a bus will end up say 3/4 full and send a bus out at that time. Rather have a bus from Maynooth every 30 mins where there aren't enough buses in the morning, where there might be 10 people on the bus during the day and where there are still buses every 30 mins into town at half 11 at night where on some buses there might only be one person. I was the only person on a bus from Maynooth to city centre once.
How many people were on the bus when it was operating outbound to Maynooth? Every trip a bus operates has two legs outbound and inbound. Just because you were the only person on the bus inbound does not mean that it was empty going out.

The idea that you'd revise bus timetables on a monthly basis is just not practical. To operate a bus service you need to develop rosters for drivers and buses - this is an enormously complex and tedious process as it needs to now also comply with the requirements of the EU working time directive which dictates maximum driving hours.

There are over 100 bus routes in Dublin - do you suggest that every one of them be reviewed every month?

What is being rolled out now is a standard interval timetable (which is best industry practice) - that is a basic requirement of a public transport service, rather than a hotch potch as was there before.

31-05-2012, 21:24   #36
GarIT
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 Originally Posted by lxflyer How many people were on the bus when it was operating outbound to Maynooth? Every trip a bus operates has two legs outbound and inbound. Just because you were the only person on the bus inbound does not mean that it was empty going out. The idea that you'd revise bus timetables on a monthly basis is just not practical. To operate a bus service you need to develop rosters for drivers and buses - this is an enormously complex and tedious process as it needs to now also comply with the requirements of the EU working time directive which dictates maximum driving hours. There are over 100 bus routes in Dublin - do you suggest that every one of them be reviewed every month? What is being rolled out now is a standard interval timetable (which is best industry practice) - that is a basic requirement of a public transport service, rather than a hotch potch as was there before.
I have no idea how many people were on it going towards Maynooth. I only remember it because it was dark and creepy, It was back in winter so it felt like a ghost train or something like that. The likelyhood was that there were more people going from city centre to maynooth late at night.

It doesn't need to be revised by a person. If the drivers made a log of the numbers of people on the bus it could be worked out by a computer. My idea was that the timetable for say July 1st could be calculated based on an average of the three weeks prior to June 1st and would be confirmed from June 1st. A small number of people could be hired to look of for reasons in variations to the service like events and matches. Thats the first I've heard of anything from the EU. The drivers would know their schedule 30 days before the day.

If it were a small review done completely by computer yes. I didn't mean a full on review every month. I just meant a feview of the frequency. If buses were too empty in may from Maynooth to city centre the computer could change the timetable from every 30 mins to every 40 mins.

I think the 66 and 67 buses need to be alternated in the evenings too. I've been coming home from the stop near Heuston around 7 a few times and one day you wait 20mins for a bus and the 67 is first and everyone gets that and the bus stop is left empty bar one or two people, then the next day the 66 is first and everyone gets that. I have seen them pull up together before and they are the same bus really. There are one or two small varations in the route but its mainly the same.

Last edited by GarIT; 31-05-2012 at 21:28.

 31-05-2012, 22:34 #37 Boulevardier Registered User   Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 701 So LX, you have no ideas apart from what is actually being done. Fair enough, I'm not saying I am brimful of clever ideas either, but it does suggest that you are unlikely to differ from the Dublin Bus/Veolia powers that be on any substantive issue. I do think, though, that some posters might be more disposed to keep suggesting other ways of doing things rather than just shooting such ideas down.
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31-05-2012, 23:28   #38
Losty Dublin
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Boulevardier So LX, you have no ideas apart from what is actually being done. Fair enough, I'm not saying I am brimful of clever ideas either, but it does suggest that you are unlikely to differ from the Dublin Bus/Veolia powers that be on any substantive issue. I do think, though, that some posters might be more disposed to keep suggesting other ways of doing things rather than just shooting such ideas down.
As a whole, most of the Network Direct changes are broadly what Dublin Bus would have adjusted themselves given the chance. There have been instances where public opinion, political tinkering and other factors have led to adaptions or dropping of some of the reccomended changes to routes and services. It is taking a lot of time to implement given the many routes to work around along with consultation periods with interested parties and driver/bus rosters to work out so it will take longer again before it finally bears fruit and people get used to the new arrangements.

01-06-2012, 01:13   #39
n97 mini
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 Originally Posted by lxflyer How many people were on the bus when it was operating outbound to Maynooth?
66 is one of the most ridiculous DB routes there is (only bettered by the 67), meandering through Dublin suburbubs with average journey time of well over an hour, whereas the 25 gets a straight run out the N4 to Lucan.

01-06-2012, 07:48   #40
lxflyer
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Boulevardier So LX, you have no ideas apart from what is actually being done. Fair enough, I'm not saying I am brimful of clever ideas either, but it does suggest that you are unlikely to differ from the Dublin Bus/Veolia powers that be on any substantive issue. I do think, though, that some posters might be more disposed to keep suggesting other ways of doing things rather than just shooting such ideas down.
With respect Boulevardier that sort of comment about me is unfair. We are in the middle of the single biggest change process in the history of the Dublin city bus network which i support and I get accused of having no ideas. I have campaigned in the background for years with the powers that be to get DB to bring in the sort of changes that are happening now, i.e. standardised regular interval departures, clock face timetables (i.e. same minutes past each hour), simplified route structures, corridor co-ordinated timetables, the rollout of AVLC and then as a result RTPI. This was well before the Deloitte report was published.

So forgive me if I seem in your view to have no ideas while most of the ideas that I've wanted to see happen are still in the process of being implemented. However I have already stated here several times that I'd like to see a simple zonal fare structure implemented on DB as the staged fare system is too complicated. I'd like to see superior quality customer information available - its improved in leaps and bounds but there's still a long way to go.

My criticisms are directed towards ideas that are just not practical in the current economic climate. Looking for expansion of services when there are cuts in subventions (and operators are struggling to deliver the existing services as a result) is just not practical.

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01-06-2012, 08:02   #41
lxflyer
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by GarIT I have no idea how many people were on it going towards Maynooth. I only remember it because it was dark and creepy, It was back in winter so it felt like a ghost train or something like that. The likelyhood was that there were more people going from city centre to maynooth late at night. It doesn't need to be revised by a person. If the drivers made a log of the numbers of people on the bus it could be worked out by a computer. My idea was that the timetable for say July 1st could be calculated based on an average of the three weeks prior to June 1st and would be confirmed from June 1st. A small number of people could be hired to look of for reasons in variations to the service like events and matches. Thats the first I've heard of anything from the EU. The drivers would know their schedule 30 days before the day. If it were a small review done completely by computer yes. I didn't mean a full on review every month. I just meant a feview of the frequency. If buses were too empty in may from Maynooth to city centre the computer could change the timetable from every 30 mins to every 40 mins. I think the 66 and 67 buses need to be alternated in the evenings too. I've been coming home from the stop near Heuston around 7 a few times and one day you wait 20mins for a bus and the 67 is first and everyone gets that and the bus stop is left empty bar one or two people, then the next day the 66 is first and everyone gets that. I have seen them pull up together before and they are the same bus really. There are one or two small varations in the route but its mainly the same.
The reason I asked the question about the outbound 66 is that the bus you were on was probably reasonably heavily loaded going out. The lightly loaded inbound service is a necessary consequence of operating outbound. You are never going to have full buses in both directions all day. So if you reduce frequency in the direction where loadings are lighter then by consequence you are reducing the frequency in the other direction as well where it is probably needed.

I would suggest you also look at the 26, 66/a/b and 67 timetables. Between them they offer a 7-8 minute service through Chapelizod all day, a 15 minute service to Leixlip all day, they operate at the same minutes past each hour all day, and the interval between departures is a standard one all day.

Simple clock face timetables that are uncomplicated are international best practice and encourage people to start using the bus.

What you are suggesting with remove all of that. Changing times every single month would be hugely costly (all the timetables would have to be changed on every stop), immensely frustrating (removal of predictability) and as I've said above totally impractical.

Lesson #1 in public transport - keep it simple!

03-06-2012, 16:09   #42
Andremac96
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Boulevardier I was shocked to find, on being dropped by a friend at Cherrywood just after 11 last night (Sunday) that I had missed the last Luas to town, and I barely got down to the main road in time for the last bus. Has the Luas always stopped this early on Sunday night, or is this the result of some recent cutbacks in the service? Either way, it is pretty poor.
Got this off the luas website

FROM St. Stephen's Green TO Brides Glen

Monday - Friday 5:30am to 0:30am
Saturday 6:30am to 0:30am
Sunday & Bk Holiday 7:00am to 11:30pm

FROM Brides Glen TO St. Stephen's Green

Monday - Friday 5:30am to Midnight
Saturday 6:30am to Midnight
Sunday & Bk Holiday 7:00am to 11:00pm

http://www.luas.ie/operating-hours/

03-06-2012, 20:26   #43
AlekSmart
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by lxflyer With respect Boulevardier that sort of comment about me is unfair. We are in the middle of the single biggest change process in the history of the Dublin city bus network which i support and I get accused of having no ideas. I have campaigned in the background for years with the powers that be to get DB to bring in the sort of changes that are happening now, i.e. standardised regular interval departures, clock face timetables (i.e. same minutes past each hour), simplified route structures, corridor co-ordinated timetables, the rollout of AVLC and then as a result RTPI. This was well before the Deloitte report was published. My criticisms are directed towards ideas that are just not practical in the current economic climate. Looking for expansion of services when there are cuts in subventions (and operators are struggling to deliver the existing services as a result) is just not practical.
Well put,LxFlyer.

I would be of a similar mind to yourself,with perhaps the added stimulus that my continued financial wellbeing depends upon Network Direct achieving at least some of it's original intentions.

I will confess,however,to being very (VERY) uneasy at the direction which Network Direct has taken since it became apparent that the original Phase 1 implimentation was hugely flawed and similarly mishandled.

The somewhat delayed success of the ND'd 46A and 145 routes followed by similar happenings on the Lucan corridor needed,IMO,to be recognized and built upon.

In addition,the lack of comprehension of the potential of routes such as the 4 is equally very (VERY) concerning to me personally.

Listening,in recent weeks,to the fulminations of the Referendum debaters has left me feeling somewhat puzzled.

On the one-hand,we know that the games up for our old Celtic Tiger ways,yet on the other,I continually fail to find concerete evidence of the widespread poverty and deprivation outlined by Ms Mary Lou Mc D,Mr Joe Higgins and others.

I still,on a daily basis,have to contend with substantial peak-time traffic congestion,caused in the main by single occupant private cars,many of recent vintage.

Off peak,for a supposedly mainstream EU Capital City,my loadings are appalingly low,yet I have constant nightly difficulty navigating through Ranelagh Village due to the sheer volume of traffic and the equally impressive selfishnes of the vehicle owners,ever keen to park their late model SUV's directly outside the restaurant in which they feast.

However,at no point in any of the deabtes or reviews prompted by or taken on board by the Government or NTA itself,has any real attempt been made to devise and impliment a Bus based strategy to cater for the evening leisure market.

With this in mind,I suggest that off-peak frequencies of 30 minutes + or even 1 hour in some cases will NEVER attract regular fare-paying patronage.

Equally,the current hours of operation which see "Last-Cars" at 23.30 ex An Lár will never attract the recreational use we so badly need to encourage.

Quote:
 Boulavardier:Fair enough, I'm not saying I am brimful of clever ideas either, but it does suggest that you are unlikely to differ from the Dublin Bus/Veolia powers that be on any substantive issue.
So to address Boulavardiay's point in a small way,I would suggest that some focus needs to be placed upon encouraging off-peak Bus Useage,such as a 2 for 1 off-peak return ticket,such as could be now easily facilitated by a Leap-Card transaction.

Ticketing initiatives have to be coupled with appropriate availability of services,with I suggest the replacement of NiteLink by a dedicated 24Hr service on Primary Routes with supplemental NiteLink express departures on occassions of high demand.

These initiatives would not demand much (if any) extra resources,as the current DB staff agreements already allow for such service structures,however,the costs will never match the revenue,so some degree of structured targeted subvention would be required.

I would suggest,however that a system wide Off-Peak Stimulous Initiative would be a somewhat better investment that current nonsensical "Improvements" such as the 44,47,84/84A tragi-comedy ongoing in South Dublin/East Wicklow and environs.

Yes,if you like,it could be described as seeking a targeted subvention from the NTA to entice people back to the reality of acknowledging that VERY few of us can ACTUALLY afford to run an Audi Q7,Range Rover Sport or Porsche Cayenne on a daily basis.

I accept that these may be flagship icons,but the principle remains that we are currently a Fur Coat and No Knickers economy,which really cannot continue in this way for much longer.

I would also consider it a definite pre-requesite that strict behavioural guidelines be very clearly outlined BEFORE any such late services begin,with appropriate high-profile support being visibly in-place to discourage the all too prevalent savagery which Dublin appears to be fast developing a recent reputation for.

Can it be done...?

In my opinion,YES.

Should it be done ..?

Again,YES.

Will it be even attempted..?

In my opinion......Highly Unlikely

 04-06-2012, 10:14 #44 antoinolachtnai Registered User   Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Outer Space Posts: 5,356 The issue here is really the cost base. To increase the frequency or the operating hours, the operating costs just have to be cut. The revenue will meet the costs just fine. The marginal cost of running evening services is (or should be) very low. There has to be demand on the main routes overnight. If the 46A can support a service every 15 minutes all day, then there must be demand for at least one 46A every hour or two. Similarly, if there is demand enough to keep the luas running until 11.30, every 15 minutes, surely there must be enough demand to provide a bus route running a roughly corresponding route overnight on at least an hourly or two-hourly basis.