[MadsL]

Originally Posted by conor.hogan.2

So we should have jumped into a war we were unprepared for 2-3 years into it despite the fact it was not expected to last much longer.

Where did I say Ireland should have jumped into the war? I'm just correcting your view that no-one knew about the mass murder of Jews until the Allies liberated the camps. That is simply untrue.

Again, which of the facts I quoted are you disputing or claim are biased as they are from a Jewish website?

Originally Posted by conor.hogan.2

You have to look at history from the time you are looking at, not from modern day.

That probably doesn't apply when talking about the famine though does it?

[conor.hogan.2]

Originally Posted by MadsL

Where did I say Ireland should have jumped into the war? I'm just correcting your view that no-one knew about the mass murder of Jews until the Allies liberated the camps. That is simply untrue.

That probably doesn't apply when talking about the famine though does it?

I never said no one knew. It was not widely known until 1942/3. Even then it was not known the horrible extent.

It does apply, it applied to all history. In fact it is inherent in the study of history.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=327

What is your point here then? The quoted bit you said. Solidarity? We were not the only neutral european country and all the other reasons I mentioned is why we did not "stand in solidarity".

[Mardy Bum]

Originally Posted by conor.hogan.2

I never said no one knew. It was not widely known until 1942/3. Even then it was not known the horrible extent.

It does apply, it applied to all history. In fact it is inherent in the study of history.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=327

What is your point here then? The quoted bit you said. Solidarity? We were not the only neutral european country and all the other reasons I mentioned is why we did not "stand in solidarity".

Solidarity in that we went through a systematic destruction of a class similar to how Hitler attempted to wipe out the Jews. If we want to feel sorry for ourselves about the famine and point fingers at the English the Irish government should have applied themselves in WW2 and not sat back and watched Hitler attempt something similar to what the English attempted.

[Wibbs]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Although English is lexically quite different, if you were told what every word means you could easily read this piece of Anglo-Saxon, it even has the basic word order of Modern English.

Its easier to listen to than to read. For my ear anyway. I've heard scholar chappies in Saxon and the modern English language ear begins to get into it. Kinda sounds like the Swedish chef in the muppets mixed with a drunk Manchunian . Funny for me Chaucer English seems easier to read than listen to. I'm wired funny mind you.

Pangar Bán, even if you know some words to begin with, would require some digging into the grammar and Pangar Bán is very easy Old Irish, for example it occurs only a few chapters into David Stifter's Sengoidelc textbook (58 chapters in total).

The translations seem to differ a lot too. Even the first line. He doesn't seem to mention the word "cat", it's "me and Pangur Ban" Presumably Pangur = cat itself? Seems this monk bloke was not unlike an uninventive mate of mine when it came to naming his pets. He had a dog called "Dog" and a cat called "Cat". Remarkably both knew the diff between the noun and their name. At least the monk bloke added some spice with a colour. Amazing to think that this Irish bloke was so far from home in the middle of Germany(IIRC) at the time, writing about him and his pet moggy in the native language of his dreams. Plus the locals probably thought it was some deep theological musing in the margins of the text.

Aside, while you can youtube various types speaking Old English, Latin, ancient Greek et al, I've yet to find/hear Old Irish. I'd love to hear the diffs. Spoken Latin(modern Italian dialect) came as a surprise to me the first time I heard it(kinda reminded me of Portuguese, more than Italian/Spanish).

Originally Posted by MadsL

I'd suggest the scale was the shocking thing, not that the Holocaust was a systematic 'removal' of the Jews, that was well known by 1942/3.

+1. That seems to have been the take of rellies of mine who were in WW2. They certainly knew of systematic abuse of Jews and others beyond the Nazi pale, but the degree and industrialisation of it was the big shock. There was a real sense of disbelief, even after they liberated the camps. Hence the rush to get reporters and film crews in to record it all in case people later said it was all allied anti German propaganda/myth. Even so, some eejits believe it was.

Originally Posted by Mardy Bum

Solidarity in that we went through a systematic destruction of a class similar to how Hitler attempted to wipe out the Jews. If we want to feel sorry for ourselves about the famine and point fingers at the English the Irish government should have applied themselves in WW2 and not sat back and watched Hitler attempt something similar to what the English attempted.

And this is where I part company. When comparisons like that are made it's both hysterical and historically inaccurate. It might egg on the true believers but it's in no way "similar". a) there was not an official British government policy of either the extermination of the Irish, nor a policy of starving them to death. b) Quite a number of the same British government set up aid, which kinda goes against point a. Did they do enough? Hell no. They fcuked up massively. Where they to blame for many thousands of deaths due to this set of fcukups? Where more than a few feeling "meh it's just the Irish subhumans" Yes most certainly. However what the Nazis set out deliberately to do was very different.

TBH this argument for similarity reminds me of those who like to claim that things like Dresden was "just as bad". No. Bit of a diff. For a start when Germany surrendered and the war was over bombing stopped. If the allies had surrendered then the German state would have continued to exterminate Jews and other undesirables until there was nobody left to kill.

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by lividduck

FFS it was 160+ years ago, build a bridge!

Actually livid duck it probrably affects each and every one of us today in terms of health.

[lividduck]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

Actually livid duck it probrably affects each and every one of us today in terms of health.

Oh grow up!
If my da smoked it might affect my health, but the 1845-47 famine? get serious , it happened, we moved on, get a life and stop living a life based on hating the British of generations ago.

[Fenian Army]

Ireland was not overpopulated.

[Corruptedmorals]

A biography of the Mitford sisters, who all lived through the war and were extremely notorious at the time states that although the ongoing persecution was known, concentration camps etc. were not, only if you went looking for that information and it was generally information published by communist sources, and therefore dismissed as being unreliable and having an agenda. Other sources also describe that to an extent, people did know about it but it wasn't until after the war that the systematic nature of the holocaust was exposed, and it came as a huge shock. It can't be compared to the famine, neglect, indifference, dismissal as subhuman does NOT compare to deliberate murder on a huge scale.

I also don't think Ireland was overpopulated. Certain pockets of it were extremely densely populated, especially on the west coast, but on the whole, no.

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by lividduck

Oh grow up!
If my da smoked it might affect my health, but the 1845-47 famine? get serious , it happened, we moved on, get a life and stop living a life based on hating the British of generations ago.

Lividduck my post was not itended as a "Were still affected so f the British sort of thing". I meant it as an interesting fact. Theres a field of genetics called epigenetics which states that what happens to us in our life can be passed down to our kids and our grandkids.

Contrary to previous belief within science aquired traits can be passed on. The dutch winter famine and some of the swiss famines are the most studied. Among the other affects famine leaves the suvivors descendants with an enhanced likelyhood of diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Both diseases can relate to food storage within the body so it makes sense if you think about it.