[doomed]

I suspect most of the people who slag off the DF either wouldn't get in themselves or would be F**k all use if they did.

[BostonB]

Originally Posted by Poccington

I fail to see how it's relevant to what Tac was saying?

He was making the point that someone, upon joining their countries military, is effectively signing over their life to the service of their country, something which could result in their death.

He's not saying "Being a soldier is super dangerous all the time".

Sorry but I don't get the distinction you're making. Risk, life, death, I don't see how else you could take those terms. Relatively speaking its not that dangerous in relation to other jobs in Ireland, is the point I'm making. Lots of careers require commitments of long terms or contacts, even a lifetime contract, though usually you choose to leave almost all of them.

I'm not rubbishing that is has risk, or that it require serious commitment. But lets rein in the drama. Tac's experience I seem to remember is a little broader than most.

[BostonB]

Originally Posted by doomed

I suspect most of the people who slag off the DF either wouldn't get in themselves or would be F**k all use if they did.

I think thats a bit of a cop out. It doesn't hurt to learn from valid criticism.

[Wilberto]

Firstly, we're a neutral country (obviously), so any wars like Iraq etc. are all out of the question for the Irish Army.

Secondly, The FCA was a joke, seriously! It became known as the "Free Clothing Association" and "Fools Carrying Arms". And even from first hand experience (I was a member for several years), the people who signed up had no more interest of being there. All they wanted was the money from camp. And don't get me started on the joke that those camps were. We all went there for a laugh, nothing more!

But that's why they tried to somewhat overhaul it and change it to the RDF. And, to be fair, it did improve to an extent. The corporal and seargeant's courses became tougher, we actually had meaningful two week camps in the Summer, for example one summer for two weeks we did a mortar course up in Kilkenny. And there were other signs of improvements too. Not sure what it's like now myself because I'm out of it for about 5 years but it seemed to be on the right track when I left.


Oh and another example of how much of a joke the FCA was, even though the age limit was 17, there was a 16 year old Corporal. I knew lieing about your age was a very common occurance, but a 16 year old corporal was just ridiculous.

Another example was during the corporals course when a female private went on sick leave ((I can't remember what it's actually called)) for pretty much the whole two weeks of the course.......and still got her corporal stripes.


To finish though, like I said, that was the FCA. They knew themselves something was rotten with that whole section of the defense forces and they did make a few changes (at least it seemed like that on the ground level), and merged smaller battallions into a larger one etc. and, again it really did seem to be improving when I left.

[BostonB]

Seems to me there's been a sea of change in the DF over the last decade or so. Its the small things I notice. Like the squads jogging in the park, with packs, in good formation. I doubt I ever saw that a decade ago. There were also on the TV last rebuilding a browning from that crashed spit in the bog. Then test firing it. Good to see.

[xflyer]

I'm afraid your post summarises many of the problems of public perception of the Defence forces.

Originally Posted by Wilberto

Firstly, we're a neutral country (obviously), so any wars like Iraq etc. are all out of the question for the Irish Army.

We're not neutral, never were, never will be. That's the fantasy perpetrated for years by various governments over the years. We weren't even neutral in WW2. We are non aligned. Wars like Iraq or wherever are not out of the question. We have troops in Afghanistan right now. This neutrality myth needs to be consigned to history once and for all.

Secondly, The FCA was a joke, seriously! It became known as the "Free Clothing Association" and "Fools Carrying Arms". And even from first hand experience (I was a member for several years), the people who signed up had no more interest of being there. All they wanted was the money from camp. And don't get me started on the joke that those camps were. We all went there for a laugh, nothing more!

It was units like yours that gave the rest of the FCA the bad reputation it had. My experience in our Dublin Battalion was quite different. Sure we had the problem of poor equipment and inadequate training. But everyone involved wanted to be there and we had a good turnout all year round. Camp was taken seriously and we served along the border several years running and were the first FCA unit to get helicopter training and experience. A large number of members later went on to the PDF and other forces having distinguished careers. But we were the exception. Most other units we came across were shambolic in comparison.

As for the Free Clothes Association 'Joke'. It was quite ironic, considering how much money we all spent on our uniforms and equipment to make up for the penny pinching attitude of the government.

Oh and another example of how much of a joke the FCA was, even though the age limit was 17, there was a 16 year old Corporal. I knew lieing about your age was a very common occurance, but a 16 year old corporal was just ridiculous.

Again it would never happen in my unit but we did have a 14 year old recruit and the vast majority joined when they were 16. This got Ireland mentioned by Amnesty in terms of using child soldiers. But as another example of how the FCA wasn't taken seriously as a military unit. A lawyer friend who is an expert in the field dismissed it as an 'over the top reaction'. 'It was' she said 'only the FCA'. A sort of glorified boy scout troop.

With that kind of legacy it's no wonder there is a general lack of regard for the Defence Forces.

[KickstartHeart]

A life in the Defence Forces may hold low amounts of risk. But the risk amounts on operations. Given the amount of our soldiers that were killed oversea's from IED's, mines, gun fire, and in some cases general combat, its fair to say that going on operations with the Defence Forces is definitely more risky than other jobs.

Obviously other jobs will have more risk attached than a life time in the Army. Pretty much most armies are not risky. They just get risky when operations arise. If you exclude the missions that soldiers take part in, from any army, the job isn't too risky. (within reason. some armies in the world exist in war zones, rather than getting sent to them like the PDF or the British Army or other ones closes to us).

[BostonB]

The point still stands that other professions are more dangerous in relative terms per the numbers involved. If you consider how often you stand beside lethal spinning machinery, or working from heights or electricity on a daily basis.

I'm not dismissing the magnitude of what the DF can be asked to do. Not everyone can do a different profession, be it, work at height, or put themselves in harms way, or walk into a fire etc.

[Morpheus]

Good thing we dont train regularly with live munitions, explosives, grenades, rockets, artillery, heavy machinery, around and in vehicles, aircraft, boats, ships, both in and under water, inside aircraft, parachuting, in heavy machinery shops, welding, cutting, cranes, LFTT, on ranges, in and around areas containing unexploded ordnance, living outdoors for days on end, etc ..... get the picture? The DF isnt about strolling unarmed around a barracks all day. All the safety in the world doesnt stop someone clearing a weapon incorrectly due to tiredness and missing your foot by inches with a live round, being shot in the arm on a range practice, or sadly like the young soldier from cork being buried today who was killed during LFTT in the UK last week.

[Kat1170]

Originally Posted by BostonB

The point still stands that other professions are more dangerous in relative terms per the numbers involved. If you consider how often you stand beside lethal spinning machinery, or working from heights or electricity on a daily basis.

I'm not dismissing the magnitude of what the DF can be asked to do. Not everyone can do a different profession, be it, work at height, or put themselves in harms way, or walk into a fire etc.

You mean as opposed to the fitters, riggers, electricians, and firemen in the DF ????

Your ignorance of what the DF actually do on a day to day basis is clear.

[BostonB]

Originally Posted by Kat1170

You mean as opposed to the fitters, riggers, electricians, and firemen in the DF ????

Your ignorance of what the DF actually do on a day to day basis is clear.

So your saying the stats are wrong. Can you offer some links to better stats then?

[BostonB]

That wasn't the Irish DF though. The point still stands regarding the number of relative deaths and accidents in Ireland.

[Morpheus]

the most dangerous job in ireland was supposedly in the construction industry or farming in a recent survey no?

so the DF are safer? of course they are. This isnt due to us all carrying water pistols and throwing halloween bangers at each other... rather do you think that this could be something to do with the vast quantity of H&S thrown at you from the moment you join as a recruit.

The DF is a safer place to work due to the effort they have put in to MAKE, what is by its nature a deadly working environment, an inherently safe one, purely because of the level of training and care and protection its employees are given and surrounded by.

NOT because the consequences of your actions around the military working environment are less dangerous, but because due to your training, it is MORE safe.

Some of the other industries in Ireland with bad track records in deaths in the workplace, could do with an equal amount of regulation in regard to H&S.

Nobody here is saying the being in the DF means you have THEE most dangerous job in the country, rather they are saying that due to our training in health and safety, its much harder to accidentally walk into a spinning rotor or drop the grenade on the range after you've pulled the pin and not have your training kick in and save your life. But it remains a potentially deadly working environment there are almost 15000 members in the DF (including reserves), that alone makes it one of the larger industries in the country yet there are not many potentially lethal injuries and this is due to ... you guessed it, training and H&S.

As regards it not being the Irish DF, we do the same training and run the SAME risk. he was unlucky even though he too was properly trained and surrounded by an environment made as safe as possible for what he was doing. All it takes is one person to slip and fall in mud etc, mid shot with safety off and someone gets hurt. Anyway, this thread now has f**k all to do with hatred of the DF.

[tac foley]

Originally Posted by BostonB

The point still stands that other professions are more dangerous in relative terms per the numbers involved. If you consider how often you stand beside lethal spinning machinery, or working from heights or electricity on a daily basis.

Sir - you seem to have overlooked the point that the 'lethal spinning machinery, heights and electricity' are not actively doing their utmost best to kill you.

For those who choose to wear uniform, that simple fact persuades other people that they are live targets to be engaged and 'neutralised'.

tac

[BostonB]

Originally Posted by tac foley

Sir - you seem to have overlooked the point that the 'lethal spinning machinery, heights and electricity' are not actively doing their utmost best to kill you....

I suggest you don't test that theory when working with them. Gravity in particular doesn't generally miss.