[errlloyd]

Originally Posted by JustinDee

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

I am going to go ahead and say the Soccer World cup isn't a world cup because Somalia don't enter team.

The reason we call it a European Cup, and say Leinster are the best team in Europe is because if good enough teams existed in Europe they'd be let in. If a great rugby franchise existed in North America, we wouldn't let them in.

Indeed in the first H/Cup a Romanian team played, because the Amlin winner gets auto H/Cup quali theoretically within two seasons you could have teams from Romania and Spain enter the H/Cup.

Is the champions league really a european cup if no team from Luxembourg takes part? No of course not.

On a more abstract level you could argue that world 100m champion couldn't truly be decided unless every single person in the world raced in it.

In reality everyone knows the context in which we say "Leinster are the best rugby team in Europe" - your mate from league would be justifiably annoyed if we didn't specify they were the best Union team in Europe. But to say we are misleading people by not first clarifying that there are only really 30-40 teams in Europe is absolute sillyness.

How should we say it "Leinster are the best of the teams in the championship that theoretically incorporates all of Europe, but in reality only a relatively small percentage take part".

Thats like me saying "Renaud Lavillenie is the champion of all the people in the world who have at some point pursued pole vaulting at a competitive level".

"Stephen Hawking is the smartest of the people who were lucky enough to have a very good basic intelligence and a high investment in their education as they were growing up allowing them the freedom to pursue a life in academia"


But all of this is Academic, if I want to say Leinster are the best club rugby team in the world outside of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, just to impress someone who knows nothing about rugby, that's my right.


TL;DR

The truth is the only person who gives a damn who the best club rugby side in Europe is, is someone who knows enough about rugby to accurately understand exactly what that statement means!!

[JustinDee]

Originally Posted by Banbridgeman

I've no idea what your point is here? Do you want German club teams in the HC or something?

No, I'm just saying the references to 'Europe' when it comes to the rugby are exaggerative, in my opinion.

[Conas]

Originally Posted by Timothy Bryce

Indeed - personally I'd have Strauss on the bench ahead of nugget

Personally I'd have any Irish hooker ahead of Strauss. He's South African, he's not Irish. Let him play for South Africa. We need to develop are own players not take someone elses.

[bossa_nova]

In my opinion the Heiniken cup is a great barometer to how good a national team should be, the only exception being wales winning the odd grand slam but consistency is a problem for them.

If you look at the 5 Heiniken cups during 99-04 it was about the English clubs, winning 4 out of 5 cups, and true to their form they went on with the National team get wins against Aus and New Zealand down under, went on to win a world cup and peaked at number 1 in the world rankings.

Then we have the french domination of the Heiniken cup starting from 02' to 06 where during 5 Heiniken cup finals, 6 French teams made up the 10 teams in the finals, this coincided with France's best spell of form recently winning 2 grandslams, a 6 nations championship and beating team like NZ and Aus home and away and peaking out at 2nd in the world rankings

Now look at Ireland, 4 irish teams won the last 6 Heiniken cups, and during 05-07(pre- world cup) Ireland where on course to reaching the potential that club teams where laying out for them peaking at 3rd in the world rankings and playing some great rugby against SA AUS and coming within a whisker of a grandslam/championship. During 08-09 when we won 2 HCups and a change in head caoch at Ireland we won grand slam and went unbeaten for a year, we didnt give the best performances but we where on course to hopefully fulfill our potential. Since then i feel the Irish are even better in the HC with 4 teams now in it and 3rd province making a serious challenge to win the cup, yet our form has drastically dropped over 4 tournaments at a national level, and our performances are nowhere near what our provinces are throwing out.

There is something seriously strangling Ireland at a national level and its certainly not the NIQs holding us back (realistically we are only in bad shape at prop, and only after the England game has the IRFU bothered their hole to do something about, some thing should have been done after the whole fiasco with Hayes and Buckley, but no we rested in the fact that we found Mike Ross and said grand no need for a prop now)

[JustinDee]

Originally Posted by bossa_nova

There is something seriously strangling Ireland at a national level and its certainly not the NIQs holding us back (realistically we are only in bad shape at prop, and only after the England game has the IRFU bothered their hole to do something about, some thing should have been done after the whole fiasco with Hayes and Buckley, but no we rested in the fact that we found Mike Ross and said grand no need for a prop now)

You'd be mistaken if you thought that the player succession policy was conceived in a couple of days following the England game. There is a lot of planning behind it, covering all areas involved in player contracts, budgets and constraints.

[justsomebloke]

Originally Posted by JustinDee

Was having a chat with a friend of mine involved in rugby league abroad and he brought up a good point. He thinks the use of the word 'Europe' is misleading as it depicts an all continental conquering league when in fact it involves just three professional leagues (RaboDirect Pro12, Aviva Premiership, Top14). I'd tend to agree with him in terms of Six Nations or ERC competition.

well the union ERC competitions covers more countries then RL's world club championship, so I wouldn't really be worried about it

[bossa_nova]

Originally Posted by JustinDee

You'd be mistaken if you thought that the player succession policy was conceived in a couple of days following the England game. There is a lot of planning behind it, covering all areas involved in player contracts, budgets and constraints.

Yeah i didnt mean to be that blunt about it, but it felt like they pulled it out prematurely as if to say, hey its not all bad see we are actually doing something about it. I still feel a lot more should have been done earlier to blood more Irish props or atleast bring some IQ props over from England. It will be interesting to see the Ulster vs Leinster final, theres potential for a full Irish front row to scrum down against another full Irish front row at the highest club level in Europe.

[Timothy Bryce]

Originally Posted by Conas

Personally I'd have any Irish hooker ahead of Strauss. He's South African, he's not Irish. Let him play for South Africa. We need to develop are own players not take someone elses.

All well and good but, surely if we have a hooker, who is IQ, wants to play for Ireland, and might be deemed better by the coaching staff than an 'Irish' option in the same position, we should be playing him, no?

I still think Cronin is quite rough around the edges - Strauss seems like more of reliable option to me personally.

[JustinDee]

Originally Posted by justsomebloke

well the union ERC competitions covers more countries then RL's world club championship, so I wouldn't really be worried about it

The guy is with the ARL who are responsible for the State of Origin and Kangaroos. I'd say he knows what he is talking about. Rugby league is irrelevant to the point in the first place. Don't shoot the messenger.

[bossa_nova]

Originally Posted by Conas

Personally I'd have any Irish hooker ahead of Strauss. He's South African, he's not Irish. Let him play for South Africa. We need to develop are own players not take someone elses.

I would have no problem with Strauss starting over an irish hooker provided he was the best playing hooker in Ireland, he really seems like a guy who will spend the rest of his playing days with an irish club and not get a few caps and go whever theres money

Its not the first time we have had foreigners come over and getting capped for Ireland either, issac boss was a born and breed kiwi getting capped for NZ under19s and 20s, and Tom Court was a born and breed Aussie, but looking at them now they'll most likely spend the rest of their like in Ireland and im sure they definitively consider themselves Irish at this stage

[its_phil]

Originally Posted by errlloyd

I am going to go ahead and say the Soccer World cup isn't a world cup because Somalia don't enter team.

Is the champions league really a european cup if no team from Luxembourg takes part? No of course not.

Yes they do have teams involved in both those competitions.

[OldRio]

Originally Posted by JustinDee

No, I'm just saying the references to 'Europe' when it comes to the rugby are exaggerative, in my opinion.

Two Irish teams in an European final and some people have this opinion??
That is so sad.
I guess the reason is to deflect the criticism of the international team.

[errlloyd]

Originally Posted by its_phil

Yes they do have teams involved in both those competitions.

Wow so Somalia does, that's somewhat surprising. Guess we'll go with Western Sahara.

The point with regard to Luxembourg is that although they have some teams which could play in the champions league, they've never qualified for the pool stages. By accepting they're part of it, you basically accept that any nation with atleast one team playing would be allowed enter. I am sure I can find at least one club or college playing university in every nation in Europe.

Most European nations have national teams (of varying quality)

[totallegend]

Originally Posted by JustinDee

The guy is with the ARL who are responsible for the State of Origin and Kangaroos. I'd say he knows what he is talking about. Rugby league is irrelevant to the point in the first place. Don't shoot the messenger.

Then why did you bring it up?

[JustinDee]

Originally Posted by totallegend

Then why did you bring it up?

To show that the fella is actually pretty flipping qualified to form such an opinion, thats why. Not to prove the point but to show where the point came from ie. a professional as opposed to a casual observer.