[prinz]

Originally Posted by doctoremma

I can't add anything to the religious rules but......would they be different if donor sperm/eggs WERE involved?

You answered your own question in a way. I'd imagine the reason eviltwin included that information precisely because she thought the religious rules might be different in the case of parents having a child that is not biologically completely their own... in the sex with your husband/wife is ok, sex with somebody who isn't your husband/wife....isn't ok, sort of way.

[doctoremma]

Originally Posted by prinz

You answered your own question in a way. I'd imagine the reason eviltwin included that information precisely because she thought the religious rules might be different in the case of parents having a child that is not biologically completely their own... in the sex with your husband/wife is ok, sex with somebody who isn't your husband/wife....isn't ok, sort of way.

So, a baby created using a donor sperm or egg would be viewed in the same way a baby created by infidelity would?

[prinz]

Originally Posted by doctoremma

So, a baby created using a donor sperm or egg would be viewed in the same way a baby created by infidelity would?

Yes, that's exactly it! Cue soapbox in 3......2........1...............

I gave the reason I suspect eviltwin included the extra information, that IVF with the couples own egg and sperm might be viewed differently to IVF using donor material. Creating a baby by infidelity is your invention..

[Statistician]

A few points I'd like to raise:

1. I do not believe the Catholic Church should be denying Catholics God's love. It disgusts me that people are missing out on one of Gods great gifts, that of a child - because of something the Catholic church has made up.

2. This:

In vitro fertilization and the deliberate destruction of embryos

Not all IVF requires the destruction of embryos. Indeed quite the opposite is often the case. Many people only have one or two embryos to transfer. You do not have to create lots of embryos with IVF, and many people do not.

Some people will be able to naturally create the embryo but there are other problems that IVF can solve. This means that IVF is actually saving a human life (rather than an infertile couple constantly creating embryos that die each cycle)

3. God had granted us with such powerful knowledge. It all come from Him, and IVF is good.

This issue alone is enough for me to say that I do not want to be a Catholic.

[prinz]

Originally Posted by Statistician

3. God had granted us with such powerful knowledge. It all come from Him, and IVF is good..

Is Sarin gas good too?

[georgieporgy]

Knowledge alone isn't necessarily a good thing though. If we go back to the Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden story we will remember that God told them to avoid the fruit of a particular tree.

[Statistician]

Originally Posted by prinz

Is Sarin gas good too?

It probably has uses. Maybe there is a cure for cancer locked in there somewhere.

It all of course depends on context. If no embryos are being destroyed, I can't see the problem with IVF.

[Statistician]

Originally Posted by georgieporgy

Knowledge alone isn't necessarily a good thing though. If we go back to the Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden story we will remember that God told them to avoid the fruit of a particular tree.

Why should we cripple ourselves? If this is God's wish, than I'd rather not exist.

Should we not use the gifts that God as granted? - especially ones that can cause such good, and actually promotes God's love?

[ford2600]

Believe me IVF is tough enough without family members doing a guilt trip on it.

Family members can tell them it's a sin when then have a new baby...

Originally Posted by eviltwin

Can someone clarify this for me.

Family member and his wife are going to be starting ivf in Aug, no donor eggs or sperm involved. Certain members of the family are finding this hard to accept as they see it as a sin...I thought the sin was when a donor was involved, as there is no third party in this situation is it the same?

[doctoremma]

Originally Posted by prinz

Yes, that's exactly it! Cue soapbox in 3......2........1...............

I gave the reason I suspect eviltwin included the extra information, that IVF with the couples own egg and sperm might be viewed differently to IVF using donor material. Creating a baby by infidelity is your invention..

Sigh, you can't even ask a genuine question round these parts.

All you're doing is telling me that eviltwin emphasised the point that there might be a difference with a donor egg/sperm, as if that somehow answers my question. It was the phrase which prompted my question in the first place!??!

So then, when I ask WHY this might be the case (giving a reasonable guess as to what the difference might be), you again tell me that there might be a difference when a donor egg or sperm is used (in big text this time, to really get your point across) and mock my reasoning.

And still I don't know the freaking answer to a very simple question.

[Statistician]

Originally Posted by doctoremma

And still I don't know the freaking answer to a very simple question.

According to Catholics, sins are either venial or mortal. I do not believe there is a divine scale as such (although I could be wrong!).

(from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venial_sin)
A venial sin meets at least one of the following criteria:

- It does not concern a "grave matter",
- It is not committed with full knowledge, or
- It is not committed with both deliberate and complete consent.

What is a 'grave matter'? - more subjective stuff there I suppose.

[prinz]

Originally Posted by doctoremma

Sigh, you can't even ask a genuine question round these parts.

I think eviltwin would disagree. She asked a genuine question and got genuine responses on the RCC's position.

Originally Posted by doctoremma

So then, when I ask WHY this might be the case (giving a reasonable guess as to what the difference might be), you again tell me that there might be a difference when a donor egg or sperm is used..

I gave you a reasonable guess as to the answer. I am not an apologist for the Roman Catholic Church.. if you aren't happy with my answer perhaps you should contact one, instead of taking my answer and trying to get smart with it.

Originally Posted by doctoremma

(in big text this time, to really get your point across)..

Would you prefer if I used !???!?!?!???!?!?!?! instead?

[doctoremma]

Prinz, I have no idea what I've done to warrant such responses from you. I think it best to leave it there.

Can anyone else explain why the Catholic guidelines on IVF might be different if a donor sperm or egg are used (if, indeed, they ARE different)?

[Benny_Cake]

Originally Posted by doctoremma

Prinz, I have no idea what I've done to warrant such responses from you. I think it best to leave it there.

Can anyone else explain why the Catholic guidelines on IVF might be different if a donor sperm or egg are used (if, indeed, they ARE different)?

I'm open to correction, but I don't think they are different. I think the OP thought that the Catholic objection to IVF related solely to when donors were involved - linking it to infidelity, but I'm unaware of any church statement on it.

[smokingman]

Jesus, supposedly born out of wedlock and by artificial means by a donor...