[Flashgordon197]

Recently I wrote a piece on this in the Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...314811093.html


I forwarded this onto the Minister. Here is a rather disappointing response I got from his Private Secretary:

Would practising teachers please give me their opinion . Am I exaggerating? I dont think so (obviously)

Thank you for your email to the Minister for Education and Skills, Mr. Ruairi Quinn T.D. and the enclosed letter in relation to the issue of discipline in Irish schools.

It is regretted you have such a negative view of the behaviour of students in our schools. Whilst it is acknowledged that there are schools where lessons are disrupted by poor student behaviour, the evidence is that the problem is not as widespread as you believe.

The Inspectorate takes very seriously its responsibility to provide quality assurance within the education system and, consequently, inspectors spend a significant amount of time in classrooms. You suggest that inspectors do not see the reality of school life and that students put on performances while the inspector is present. In developing their inspection frameworks, the Inspectorate has addressed this risk. At various stages during an inspection, members of the school community, including teachers, students and parents have opportunities to interact with the evaluation team to discuss their work, including the challenges they face. The recent introduction of incidental inspections in post-primary schools also addresses this concern. Because these are unannounced inspections, an incidental inspection provides a further authentic quality assurance process.

Another very important measure to ensure that the independent and anonymous views of parents and students are heard is the use of questionnaires in whole-school evaluations. A number of the questions in these surveys relate directly to discipline in the school. An analysis of these surveys shows a very high level of awareness of schools’ behaviour policies. Parents and students are also extremely positive about the atmosphere in their school and the vast majority believe that discipline is good in their school. From September 2012, all teachers in post-primary schools where there is a whole-school evaluation will also be surveyed anonymously and this will provide further evidence in relation to discipline in schools.

Your comments are noted about poor teachers and your concern that current inspection processes do not identify them. Please note that in most inspections, the focus of evaluation is on the work of a subject department or school as a whole and not on the work of individual teachers. However, procedures are in place under Section 24 of the Education Act (1998) to facilitate schools in dealing with issues relating to professional competence and a stage in this process requires the school to seek and independent view of the teacher’s work from the Inspectorate. Schools have availed of this process and the Inspectorate has undertaken the associated inspections of teachers’ work.

I hope this information is of assistance to you.

Yours sincerely


Ronnie Ryan
Private Secretary

[spurious]

I don't think the Department have any idea what really goes on in many schools. Dippers are generally given easy well-behaved classes and for inspections, some of the loo-lahs are suddenly found an 'urgent message' to do for a teacher.

It's not widespread, but there are out of control teenagers who are assessed as 'normal' and not needing any interventions who are causing havoc in some classes in some schools.

I'm not talking about children with special needs. I'm talking about the ones who needed a size 10 up the a**e the first time they defied a parent, whose parents are almost afraid of upsetting the little darling by imposing any discipline. These children rule the roost in their own homes and go ballistic at the first sign of anyone not letting them have their own way in school. Their parents are so demoralised by them at this stage after giving in so often that they take the side of the little darling no matter what they have done. God forbid he/she would be upset.

I feel so sorry for the normal, standard, relatively well-behaved child who comes in every day, doesn't feel the need to be disrespectful to their classmates or teachers, doesn't have to use foul language and just gets on with their work as best they can. The child who sits there while minute after minute after hour after hour of their learning time is taken up with dealing with the 'angel' who cannot behave.

One in a class is bad enough, but with the overcrowding now it's often more than four.

Of course it's probably the teacher's fault though, not giving the poor bub appropriately interesting work (or something). Let's not upset the poor love by actually expecting a certain amount of work from them.

[2011abc]

Yeah its rough out there and the increasingly common scenario is that unsupportive principal / DP will readily ' not re-employ ' teachers who are 'percieved' (its all about perceptions these days dontcha know...how the kids percieve ya and what they tell their gullible parents who obviously arent in the classroom ).So the obvious Catch 22 is that the terrified teacher has to try clean up their own mess (or should that be their students' parents mess?)Getting worse all the time , although in fairness there have always been discipline problems in schools.Potential very scarey future .

[rainbowtrout]

Department doesn't have a clue what's going on in schools, or perhaps they do know and just don't want to acknowledge it because then they might have to do something about it.

In some instances part time teachers like 2011abc said are in a position where they may not be re-employed if they are perceived to have a discipline issue, so in order to hang onto their job will suffer in silence, or do not receive support from management.

We had some Croke Park hours this week and we had a talk on what was basically managing challenging behaviour... stuff we have heard a million times before.

What I thought was hilarious was the woman giving the talk started to list 'low level behaviours' and was categorising them as things that are irritating but not a major disruption to class. Now the woman does a lot of good work with some of the students in our school with behavioural problems, but was classifying walking around the room without permission and shouting at other students/teacher/out of turn as low level. I'd love to know what classrooms she spends time in where a teacher can dismiss either of these as a minor distraction in the same bracket as a student rummaging in a school bag or tapping a pen on the desk.

Poor behaviour is not tolerated in the workplace, I don't see why we should have to tolerate it in school. Numerous times I've seen students in my school go home with some form of punishment work or get a detention for bad behaviour etc and get a note in their homework journal informing the parent of such, only for the note to come back the following day saying 'I don't agree with Johnny being punished/Johnny doesn't want to do the punishment and I agree with him so he's not going to do it' What hope do we have if this is the parent's attitude, and more to the point what hope do we have if management don't clamp down on it and say to the parents 'these are the terms and conditions you signed up to when you sent your child here, fall in line or find another school'.

[lestat21]

They havent a clue... Incidental inspections do nothing to highlight behaviour problems in the class it just puts the teachers day to day lesson planning under the microscope (which aint a bad thing)

I havent had one yet but from speaking to teachers, students are often scared quiet or encouraged to interact with the material of the lesson when there is an observer in the classroom.

Really its up to the management to recognise there is a problem and develop a logical progression of strategies that can be employed by staff to combat the problem... In one school I worked in the management discouraged me from using the discipline code in my class and I wouldnt apply to the school again. You need a supportive and active management in schools.

[rainbowtrout]

Originally Posted by lestat21

They havent a clue... Incidental inspections do nothing to highlight behaviour problems in the class it just puts the teachers day to day lesson planning under the microscope (which aint a bad thing)

I havent had one yet but from speaking to teachers, students are often scared quiet or encouraged to interact with the material of the lesson when there is an observer in the classroom.

Really its up to the management to recognise there is a problem and develop a logical progression of strategies that can be employed by staff to combat the problem... In one school I worked in the management discouraged me from using the discipline code in my class and I wouldnt apply to the school again. You need a supportive and active management in schools.

I thought I'd heard it all!!!!

[bdoo]

Can we see the day when a BOM / VEC / DES is in the High Court as a result of a child nog getting the education to which they were entitled due to the disruption in school?

Could a school be negligent in allowing disruption to continue and liable in some way?

Might be needed to get the powers that be to sit up and take notice!

I am in a good school with good procedures and good management but I know plenty who aren't. Surely a board or VEC somewhere needs to be taken to task for the above and for a failure to ensure the health safety and wellbeing of employees who are literally being driven demented by students?

[carolzoo]

The anonymous teacher surveys in relation to discipline etc need to be online surveys that teachers fill in as otherwise teachers will be afraid management might see the responses and their handwriting at the post evaluation meeting. Unless they are online or typed teachers will err on the cautious side. Managment are very powerful. Teachers are afraid for their jobs and hence will not speak out about managements practices for fear of losing their job or their hours being reduced. Even full timers such as myself do not want to be under the wrath of a principal for fear we will get a "horrible" timetable the following year i.e. all the disruptive classes etc.

Management have a huge role to play in discipline. Of course teachers play an important role but too often management leave it up to the individual teachers and do not want the extra work or hassle involved in dealing with discipline issues. Some teachers ignore the problems and do not report to year heads/management for want of keeping their positions etc. This leads to inconsistencies in schools in relation to discipline procedures.

Also pupils are streamed in certain subjects. There should be a policy in schools of rotating these streamed classes among teachers. It is unfair that some teachers keep the top stream all of the time whilst other teachers are left with the disruptive weaker stream year after year with little support from management. This leads to burnout.

I am speaking about issues in the classroom where the individual teacher has taken all relevant steps in relation to the code of discipline and common sense - after this teachers need back up from management - however unfortunately this is not happening in a lot of schools due to reasons outlined above. Students realise this and thrive on it.


Management have a huge role to play in relation to discipline in schools and "active?" policies on this are not inspected. It is all on paper but are procedures actually carried out? Too often management choose to ignore problems as it involves extra work for them. If they put in this extra work and worked hard at it for a year or two students would realise that there are consequences to their actions in the classroom and proper teaching and learning could take place in the classrom. It is management who need to be tackled in a lot of schools not the individual teachers.

[carolzoo]

And I agree in relation to one of the above postings. Students are often warned by principals to be on their best behaviour when inspectors are around. It is very difficult for inspectors to get a true picture of the culture of a school in a few hours.

[byhookorbycrook]

I am in primary and we don't see the same issues, thankfully. I agree that one child can make all the difference and that we need a greater degree of support, both from the parent/s and the DES.

[GarIT]

I think schools are much worse than most people think. We are six weeks from the leaving and its very rare to see even one class go by without a lot of disruptions. I think mixed classes are the biggest problem. In English we are divided by JC results and there is rarely any trouble in the B or higher class but the lower classes are terrible. In Irish we are all mixed and from what I hear there is a lot of trouble in every class. The troublemakers should be separated from the people in the school that want to do good and stop holding the good students back. If they suffer because they want to cause trouble that is their own problem.

I also think there are big problems with the school enforcing its rules. They have a three strike rule on smoking, 1st time is 1 day suspension 2nd time is 3 day suspension 3rd time is expulsion, Some people have been caught 10+ times without anything other than a short suspension being done but if your late twice in a week even with doctors notes explaining why you get a detention. My school definitely picks on the students that will take the punishments and lets the ones that will fight it off.

[carolzoo]

Also a portion of every staff meeeting should discuss discipline issues. Each year group should be gone through by management or the year head. Issues/complaints and follow up procedures should be openly discussed. Staff should feel free to discuss issues and not feel intimidated not to.

This is not just in relation to major disruption in classes. Low level disruption such as constant talking in class after being corrected needs to be tackled. Too often students see no consequences and will say "sure nothing is going to happen" if they are reported etc. Too often they are right!

No back up from management and no consequences for bad behaviour/low level disruption in class is rampant in schools.

Too often management shirk their responsibilities in relation to tackling both serious and low level discipline issues.

They are being paid high salaries to manage discipline in schools. Lets see them earn them.

Part of their job description I understand is to provide an environment where teaching and learning can take place in the classroom.

[doc_17]

Bit separating students and putting all the disruptive students in one class (or school for that matter) is not ideal either. The social and economic cost of that problem is much greater down the line than nit investing in proper solutions when these choldren are in their formative years.

[carolzoo]

True and I agree.. The theory behing non steaming is great but at the same time in practical terms it is extremely difficult to teach a higher, ordinary and sometimes a foundation syllabus at the same time and to attend to individual education plans of sen students in a class in class periods ranging from 30, 35 and 40 minute blocks, with 30 students or more! in a class. In order for mixed ability to take place a much lower pupil teacher ratio is imperative. Even then with syllabus demands it is extremely difficult to teach two seperate syllabi concurrently.

[bdoo]

Originally Posted by carolzoo

Also a portion of every staff meeeting should discuss discipline issues. Each year group should be gone through by management or the year head. Issues/complaints and follow up procedures should be openly discussed. Staff should feel free to discuss issues and not feel intimidated not to.

This is not just in relation to major disruption in classes. Low level disruption such as constant talking in class after being corrected needs to be tackled. Too often students see no consequences and will say "sure nothing is going to happen" if they are reported etc. Too often they are right!

No back up from management and no consequences for bad behaviour/low level disruption in class is rampant in schools.

Too often management shirk their responsibilities in relation to tackling both serious and low level discipline issues.

They are being paid high salaries to manage discipline in schools. Lets see them earn them.

Part of their job description I understand is to provide an environment where teaching and learning can take place in the classroom.

are you seriously suggesting that management should go into your class and tell the kids to stop talking? how about some responsibility?

some teachers think that discipline is only the year heads' job and that's part if the problem imo.

if they have to deal with little issues like that all the time their effectiveness is lost, discipline begins in the classroom.

As for having time at every staff meeting so that fifty people can say that student x is a pup... waste of time. Maybe if time was spent sharing ideas on how to deal with these students it may be time well spent.