[Seachmall]

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

why is word sacred religious to you?

Because "Sacred" is a religious word?

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

so why dont we legalise heroin too and let people decide if they want it

That's actually a proven way to reduce the use and risks of heroin.

But that's for a different discussion.

[LorraineMcFly]

Originally Posted by Seachmall

Because "Sacred" is a religious word?

Its used in religion certainly thats true. But does that mean non religious people cant use the word! . your argument now is resembling nit picking

[stovelid]

The answer is never black and white.I think it should be available for women that want it though.

My own personal view on abortion has changed down the years I guess: maybe as a result of having kids or just being older. I used to vehemently pro-abortion in that slightly cringy way but now I don't know whether I could agree to a healthy child of mine being aborted unless there was an obvious reason: severe disability, rape, mental health of the mother etc.

Thank god I've never been in the situation where a woman wanted to abort my child: must be a horrible situation.

That said, that's a personal view and I wouldn't impose it on others so I'm pro-choice although I think there should be fairly strict time limits and perhaps a limit on the amount of abortions one woman can have.

[im invisible]

Originally Posted by charlietheminxx

I think we actually do need a poll on this.

Atari's for some, miniture Jaguars for others?

[nozzferrahhtoo]

It is worth noting how carefully worded some of the blurb on the anti choice sites are. Take the below post about whether a fetus can feel "pain" or not and really unpack what is being said / claimed in that posts citations:

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

Weeks 10 and 11: The baby can "breathe" amniotic fluid and urinate. Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning. The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.

First thing we notice is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with pain, pain transmission, pain processing or pain experience. Nothing at all. All it does it claims certain other abilities are present and so are certain structures. This is just filler therefore. Even better it just says things are "functioning" but not to what degree of completeness. The word "functioning" can hide much behind it. A car with no engine, to use an analogy, can be "functioning" in that it has wheels and it can move.

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus.

This is where the clever wording comes in. Nothing here says the fetus DOES feel pain. It just says the parts required to do so are formed. Yet the anti choice advocate can read this superficially and just take it to mean the fetus actually does feel pain.

I could give you a stack of parts that make up a car too, it does not mean I have given you a car, just a pile of useless metal that will not get you anywhere. Simply saying to you "All the parts necessary to have a working car are present" does not indicate a working car actually IS present. It is word play.

The question is whether the fetus actually experiences pain. Simply showing that some of the pre-requisite structures for doing so are present is not answering that question. It is avoiding it. But with a bit of clever wording you can easily get anti choice advocates parroting the claim on forums anyway because it sounds like it is answering the question.

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.

Again nothing at all to do with pain. This is just more filler.

Now instead of quoting sites specifically designed to perpetuate anti abortion propaganda, let us actually cite scientific papers on the subject shall we?

Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.

"A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence" - Susan J. Lee, JD; Henry J. Peter Ralston, MD; Eleanor A. Drey, MD, EdM; John Colin Partridge, MD, MPH; Mark A. Rosen, MD

The physical system for nociception is present and functional by 26 weeks and it seems likely that the fetus is capable of feeling pain from this stage.

"Fetal pain: implications for research and practice" - Vivette Glover Reader, Nicholas M. Fisk Professor

cortical processing of pain theoretically becomes possible after development of the thalamo-cortical connections in the 26th week of gestation

Sampsa Vanhataloa, Onno van Nieuwenhuizenc. Brain and Development volume 22.

With the relevant conceptual framework in place, we elucidate the problem of determining when, in its development, a human becomes capable of feeling pain. We then examine the available data showing how, on balance, it tends more to support than undermine the claim that fetuses of around 28 to 30 weeks' gestation are capable of feeling pain.

"A Pain in the Fetus: Toward Ending Confusion about Fetal Pain" David Benatar, Michael Benatar

The accepted hypothesis of the means by which pain is perceived states that it requires certain physical structures and operations. These are not formed in fetuses until 30 weeks or more. The consensus of the scientific community at this time is that only fetuses of this age or older are capable of perceiving pain.

Wikipedia article on Neonatal perception citing Lee SJ, Ralston HJ, Drey EA, Partridge JC, Rosen MA (2005). "Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence". JAMA 294 (8): 947–54. doi:10.1001/jama.294.8.947. PMID 16118385.

While the fetal nervous system is able to react through protective reflexes to potentially harmful stimuli, there is no accurate evidence concerning pain sensations in this early period. Cortical processes occur only after thalamocortical connections and pathways have been completed at the 26th gestational week.

Fetal pain. Rokyta R. Source Department of Normal, Pathological and Clinical Physiology, 3rd Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic.

The list above seems to target the area of 26 weeks and Third Trimester. Some research I have read pushes the border back as far as 20 weeks but most of that is talking about reaction to pain not experiencing and feeling pain. There is a massive difference here as much of the nervous system can react in the total absence of subjective experience. Just tap an unconscious persons knee with a hammer sometime if you doubt that.

So if someone is claiming that at 9 to 10 weeks pain is being experienced I would love to know what evidence they are basing this on or is it all just cleverly worded blurb on anti abortion propaganda sites and blogs?

[Seachmall]

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

Its used in religion certainly thats true. But does that mean non religious people cant use the word! . your argument now is resembling nit picking

I never said they couldn't use the word, but you asked why "Sacred" meant "Religious" to him. Given the word is explicitly a religious word then that's your answer.

[smash]

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

ha so you believe now im a religious nut cos i said sacred.? why is word sacred religious to you? im a non practicing catholic, my child is not christened nor will my baby be. I detest what the church stands for. But I have a spiritual side and nothing wrong with that, insofar as I believe life is sacred.

Here you go:

sa·cred   [sey-krid]
adjective
1. devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated.
2. entitled to veneration or religious respect by association with divinity or divine things; holy.
3. pertaining to or connected with religion ( opposed to secular or profane): sacred music; sacred books.
4. reverently dedicated to some person, purpose, or object: a morning hour sacred to study.
5. regarded with reverence: the sacred memory of a dead hero.

[LorraineMcFly]

Originally Posted by Seachmall

I never said they couldn't use the word, but you asked why "Sacred" meant "Religious" to him. Given the word is explicitly a religious word then that's your answer.

Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.

[Seachmall]

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.

No. You asked a question. You got an answer. Simple as.

[smash]

Originally Posted by LorraineMcFly

Yes but you were only picking my post apart to title me as a religious nut which I am not. It seems pro abortion people like to tidy us all into a label as religious freaks. Its not that simple.

It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.

[LorraineMcFly]

Originally Posted by nozzferrahhtoo

It is worth noting how carefully worded some of the blurb on the anti choice sites are. Take the below post about whether a fetus can feel "pain" or not and really unpack what is being said / claimed in that posts citations:



First thing we notice is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with pain, pain transmission, pain processing or pain experience. Nothing at all. All it does it claims certain other abilities are present and so are certain structures. This is just filler therefore. Even better it just says things are "functioning" but not to what degree of completeness. The word "functioning" can hide much behind it. A car with no engine, to use an analogy, can be "functioning" in that it has wheels and it can move.



This is where the clever wording comes in. Nothing here says the fetus DOES feel pain. It just says the parts required to do so are formed. Yet the anti choice advocate can read this superficially and just take it to mean the fetus actually does feel pain.

I could give you a stack of parts that make up a car too, it does not mean I have given you a car, just a pile of useless metal that will not get you anywhere. Simply saying to you "All the parts necessary to have a working car are present" does not indicate a working car actually IS present. It is word play.

The question is whether the fetus actually experiences pain. Simply showing that some of the pre-requisite structures for doing so are present is not answering that question. It is avoiding it. But with a bit of clever wording you can easily get anti choice advocates parroting the claim on forums anyway because it sounds like it is answering the question.



Again nothing at all to do with pain. This is just more filler.

Now instead of quoting sites specifically designed to perpetuate anti abortion propaganda, let us actually cite scientific papers on the subject shall we?


"A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence" - Susan J. Lee, JD; Henry J. Peter Ralston, MD; Eleanor A. Drey, MD, EdM; John Colin Partridge, MD, MPH; Mark A. Rosen, MD

"Fetal pain: implications for research and practice" - Vivette Glover Reader, Nicholas M. Fisk Professor

Sampsa Vanhataloa, Onno van Nieuwenhuizenc. Brain and Development volume 22.

"A Pain in the Fetus: Toward Ending Confusion about Fetal Pain" David Benatar, Michael Benatar

Wikipedia article on Neonatal perception citing Lee SJ, Ralston HJ, Drey EA, Partridge JC, Rosen MA (2005). "Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence". JAMA 294 (8): 947–54. doi:10.1001/jama.294.8.947. PMID 16118385.

Fetal pain. Rokyta R. Source Department of Normal, Pathological and Clinical Physiology, 3rd Faculty of Medicine, Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic.

The list above seems to target the area of 26 weeks and Third Trimester. Some research I have read pushes the border back as far as 20 weeks but most of that is talking about reaction to pain not experiencing and feeling pain. There is a massive difference here as much of the nervous system can react in the total absence of subjective experience. Just tap an unconscious persons knee with a hammer sometime if you doubt that.

So if someone is claiming that at 9 to 10 weeks pain is being experienced I would love to know what evidence they are basing this on or is it all just cleverly worded blurb on anti abortion propaganda sites and blogs?

A premature baby can survive outside the womb at 22 weeks, the earliest one recorded as having survived is 21 weeks. so are you saying they also would feel no pain outside the womb at this age? when does pain kick in according to you 26 weeks? or do you admit you just dont have the answer? Because there is no definitive answer.
Its the grey area the doubt about pain that bothers me. I would never be willing to risk it.

[im invisible]

Originally Posted by smash

It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.

oh lord!

[LorraineMcFly]

Originally Posted by smash

It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.

no its pro abortion, pro choice is a diluted word used to make you feel better about the abortion.

[Teamshadowclan]

Originally Posted by smash

It's not pro abortion, it's pro choice. Jesus, why can't people see that.

Its difficult to argue against choice and personal freedom, so its easier to misrepresent people who disagree with you as extremists as well...

[prinz]

Pro-choice. Just not the choice to have a differing opinion obviously.