[meganj]

Originally Posted by CDfm

I am not looking for a fanzine but the thought lurks with me that one lot of leaders wanted to replace the other.

But that's what I'm saying, such a thing does not exist. At least not in my research, the military archives and witness statements recorded after the war are biased in favor. The ones before, biased against.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by meganj

But that's what I'm saying, such a thing does not exist. At least not in my research, the military archives and witness statements recorded after the war are biased in favor. The ones before, biased against.

So in that way, we are not clear about their political ideologies , other than they wanted to rule Ireland.

It is an interesting gap in the landscape alright.

And, we are still left with the situation that she had a gun and was out fighting (and presumably killing ) to be in charge.

[Bannasidhe]

Originally Posted by CDfm

So in that way, we are not clear about their political ideologies , other than they wanted to rule Ireland.

It is an interesting gap in the landscape alright.

And, we are still left with the situation that she had a gun and was out fighting (and presumably killing ) to be in charge.

Rule or participate in creating a new Ireland?

I think Marki (love it!) and Connolly were in the latter camp - they sought to help create a new Ireland based on equality. Indeed, If the 1916 Proclamation is to be believed - all of the signatories were of that opinion. There can be no doubt that both Connolly and Marki believed that women's rights and worker's rights were of primary importance.

Sadly, I think those who actually led the country into independence wanted to rule and were firmly of the opinion that their way was the best (and only) way so conflicting political viewpoints were airbrushed out of history and the voice of the ordinary people stifled and ignored.

[MarchDub]

Originally Posted by Bannasidhe

I would quote you chapter and verse -and will just as soon as the *&**^^$"$ I lent my copy of Women of 1916 to returns it!

Well in my copy of the same book, The Women of 1916, which is safely in my keeping - written by Ruth Taillon, she gives details of almost 200 women who were involved in various ways in the 1916 Rising. And she is rightly critical of how women have been left out of the historical narrative.

Over the intervening years, much of the historical and political analysis of the Rising has been reduced to a sterile debate between on the one hand those who have elevated the 1916 leaders to mythic status and the 'revisionists' who have used historical discourse as a means to attack modern day republicanism. In both cases the result has often been to create a caricature of the 1916 rebels - ... Likewise where the participation of women in the Rising has been acknowledged, it too has been largely reduced to caricature and stereotype.

In her intro Tallion attacks, rightly so in my opinion, the many historians who have ignored the role of women and the part they played in the Rising. She gives as an example Desmond Ryan whose account had the title The Complete Story of Easter Week yet only gives one paragraph - albeit complementary - to the role of women :

Pearse regarded the activities of the women in Easter Week with intense admiration. It was due to his influence as much as MacDonagh's and Connolly's that the Proclamation formally recognised the right of woman's suffrage in a free Ireland. Until almost the end the Cumann na mBan shared the dangers, the fire, the bullets, all the ordeal of the fighters, in the most dangerous areas, on the barricades, through the bullet-swept streets and the quay-sides, carrying dispatches, explosives, and ammunition through the thick of the fray, assisting in the hospital, cooking, and in some cases, approaching the British military posts to deliver warnings from Pearse that the Red Cross posts of the insurgents had been fired on by British snipers - while in the end it was a woman who marched out to initiate the final negotiations.

Taillon also addresses the fact that

"Constance Markievicz is afforded only a total of five sentences in the entire book".

Taillon states that she writes because of what she calls

"the shabby treatment by historians of the 1916 women is one reason this book is necessary".

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by Bannasidhe

Rule or participate in creating a new Ireland?


Sadly, I think those who actually led the country into independence wanted to rule and were firmly of the opinion that their way was the best (and only) way so conflicting political viewpoints were airbrushed out of history and the voice of the ordinary people stifled and ignored.

Rule ?

I think Marki (love it!)

Marxie

I was having a bit of trouble reconciling the "culchie" republicanism* of my grandfathers against the rising. Not now though.

Now it could be fun to de-mythify the rising thru the women in it.

We shouldn't be shocked that people killed because that's what armed rebels do. Nothing cute and "girlie" about that.

*The democratic tradition & the one that wanted the British to leave.

[MarchDub]

Originally Posted by meganj

Yep. Probably needed to remake his image. He was the only leader to not allow women on site during 1916. And his comely maidens dancing at cross roads didn't sit well with many of the women that would have fought for the countries independence,

You do know that he never actually said this - right?

[MarchDub]

Originally Posted by CDfm

I was having a bit of trouble reconciling the "culchie" republicanism* of my grandfathers against the rising. Not now though.

OK as a mere Dub I need a translation for this -

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

In her intro Tallion attacks, rightly so in my opinion, the many historians who have ignored the role of women and the part they played in the Rising. She gives as an example Desmond Ryan whose account had the title The Complete Story of Easter Week yet only gives one paragraph - albeit complementary - to the role of women :

Well, I am trying to redress the balance here and take the bangs off the ears and put them back where they belong -out the barrel of a gun.

It's all very well to say we want women portrayed in equal prominence to Pearse and Connolly but not want to say what they did.

[MarchDub]

Originally Posted by CDfm

Well, I am trying to redress the balance here and take the bangs off the ears and put them back where they belong -out the barrel of a gun.

It's all very well to say we want women portrayed in equal prominence to Pearse and Connolly but not want to say what they did.

I don't think that's the issue at all - historical accuracy is what we need.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

OK as a mere Dub I need a translation for this -

Well my grandfather used the phrase "poets and dreamers" and his political heritage would probably have been more Irish Independence Party than Sinn Fein.

His local heritage in West Cork would have been

http://www.ballingearyhs.com/index.p...2000&Itemid=11

The area was poor. Neighbours in mud huts.

The Colthursts (of which Bowen-Colthurst who executed Frank S-S. was a family member) were the local landlords. Hanna S-S father would have been a local MP.

There was no romantic notions about his nationalism but also the Colthursts got burnt out and not shot. Civilians I suppose.

Their rebellion was the West Cork Flying Column.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

I don't think that's the issue at all - historical accuracy is what we need.

OK but we have to start somewhere.

Why not start with Markievicz's Easter Week actions, the women with her and their military engagements and the military and civilian casualties. She was a leader.

[MarchDub]

Maybe we need to spin off this thread to cover all the women of 1916?

The manufacture of bombs for use in a rising began in 1915. Dozens of enthusiastic women and girls worked, during their spare time, at various tasks connected with the manufacture of cartridges, bullets and bombs. The whole basement of Liberty Hall became one big munitions works.

Armaments were stockpiled all over the city. Even though it was under constant surveillance, Constance Markievicz’s house contained all sort of weapons, hidden in every possible place. Nora Foley, a member of a Dublin republican family, described how her Fairview home too, was a ‘regular arsenal of bombs which had been made on the premises, dynamite, gelignite, rifles bayonets, ammunition and what not’.


Eilis Ui Chonail tells how for some time small arms were imported from Sheffield labelled as ‘cutlery’. A shipment was discovered in Dublin port and Dublin Castle was informed, but in the meantime Volunteer headquarters was also notified. Three members of Cumann na mBan rushed to the scene and saved the entire shipment of 110 revolvers and ammunition.

Again, I typed the above out of the Ruth Taillon book.

[CDfm]

Originally Posted by MarchDub

Maybe we need to spin off this thread to cover all the women of 1916?

Again, I typed the above out of the Ruth Taillon book.

Maybe later, let's focus on her first , and I suspect it will throw up other who's who.

Here is a handgun owned by her

[pedroeibar1]

Originally Posted by CDfm

Maybe later, let's focus on her first , and I suspect it will throw up other who's who.

Here is a handgun owned by her

That revolver raised a lot of interest last year when it went for auction by Adams; expected to make 800-1,000, it went for about €7,500 to according to rumour a foreign buyer. It’s a .32 cal manufactured by Smith & Wesson, finished by Kavanaghs of Dublin. Suitable for close quarters only. No wonder she missed the officers at the window in the University Club. However, she must have been either a great shot or a lucky one to put the bullet between them!

[Jolly Red Giant]

Originally Posted by meganj

Connolly was a socialist, as was Markievicz (although Marki's (yes Marki) seems to have been less of an ideology, and more of a horror at how the world was, if you follow me? Connolly wanted a socialist state, he saw the capitalist system as a foreign entity.

Connolly yes - Markievicz, I would argue not even close. During the war of independence she repeatedly ordered IRA troops to break strikes and continuously warned the leadership of SF to take action to undermine the significant class struggle underway in Ireland at the time.