[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful

My problem with statements like this (and not just in relation to the household charge) is that the people in this group (thinking of my parents, 68 and 71) have paid a whole lot of tax for all of their working lives and it is IMHO dreadfully unfair that they are expected to pay again.
My parents paid close to 20% interest on their mortgage as was common in the late 70s / early 80s. Dad was hammered on income tax and paid over 50%, again as was common at the time. Rates were charged too as were a variety of other additional taxes.
People in this group have paid their way already, if they have a disposable income now, I think they have earned the right to have it left alone.
Like the OPs mother, my parents have added onto their house over the years, developed a lovely garden, etc and I think it would atrocious for them, as pensioners, to be expected to fork out a large some of money in property tax.

"The question who should contribute more,
a low income pensioner, in central Dublin in a 4- bedroom house worth 650,000 close to bus links and rail links all subsidised by public transport"

Even if a house IS worth this, it is not active income so are you suggesting that people should sell the fmaily home in order to pay? Also, why the positive discrimination against those who live in the city and therefore have access to better services? They paid MORE for their homes in the first place so that they could avail of said services, they've already paid extra!

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by gosuckonalemon

It's a bit harsh, but a reality unfortunately.

I never metioned anything about a one bedroomed flat. Just a more modest, appropriate bungalow in the same areas as she lives.

Yes, elderly people have contributed massively in the course of their lives. However, with advances in medicine and healthcare they are living much longer which has increased demands on the healthcare system which current taypayers are paying.

If the woman can afford to sustain living alone in a large 5 bed house then by all means she should do so. However, I know that if it was me, and I had a choice of living with the costs of maintaining a large house like that or selling up, finding a more appropriate sized home and getting a lump sum it would be a no brainer!

Gawd the bare faced cheek of them living longer like that and screwing us poor tax payers Erm, said advances in medicine mean YOU will live longer too and...you guessed it - your kids will be paying for your healthcare some day. Dont forget we are all heading the same way. Some day you too will be a drain on the system.

[gosuckonalemon]

Originally Posted by OldNotWIse

Gawd the bare faced cheek of them living longer like that and screwing us poor tax payers Erm, said advances in medicine mean YOU will live longer too and...you guessed it - your kids will be paying for your healthcare some day. Dont forget we are all heading the same way. Some day you too will be a drain on the system.

Yes I'm aware we will all live longer, that's why we should all be expected to contribute to this charge.

This whole thing of "a sure they are old and have paid taxes all their lives" doesn't float anymore.

There are only two things certain in life...
1)death and 2) taxes, until you reach no. 1, expect to suffer no. 2

[Mr. Presentable]

How long have we had stamp duty? Is that not a property tax?

[tayto lover]

Originally Posted by NIMAN

I have absolutely no doubt that the HC will increase from €100. Never gonna stay that low.

But I do hope that they are sensible with the rises in future. I think they did a bit of kite flying recently and the figures had a 3 bed semi around he €150 - €200 mark. I honestly think that isn't bad tbh. But with the state of the finances, who really knows where it'll end up?

As for those thinking they are being smart avoiding it, I personally wouldn't be so smug about it. They will get it off you somehow. First off, it is attached to your property and so are the late fees, so if you ignore it now and try to sell in 15yrs time, you'll owe a pretty penny, and it will come out of your house sale.

If you die and leave your house to family, it will come out of your estate.

I also would fear that they will start deducting it from state benefits such as child allowance, dole etc. Thats an extreme measure, but these are extreme times.

Also heard something on the radio today that made me think that it will start people falling out with each other. It was always said that the HC would be for your local council for local use. Many didn't believe this. I heard that there is a possibility that the councils with the highest rate of non-payment may see their budgets for things like arts, entertainment, public parks etc cut. If that happens then you can be sure that those that paid will soon start to turn on those that didn't.

And finally, it is now a law, just like the TV licence. Why is there not the same social disobedience to that?

I can't help feeling that you vote F.G.

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Binge

Her house, her business, no brainer.

Exactly, some people seem to be living in some parallel Ireland where we still have a thriving property market. My Gran owns (yes owns she is not mortgaged up to her neck like most of us from the "instant gratification" generation) her own house that her and my Grandad worked all their lives for. Yes it has 4 bedrooms, the cheek of her staying there after her family moved on any my grandad died! This house is maybe worth 150k max - she is supposed to sell this and buy a one bed bungalow and still have a "lump sum"? erm.....

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by gosuckonalemon

Yes I'm aware we will all live longer, that's why we should all be expected to contribute to this charge.

This whole thing of "a sure they are old and have paid taxes all their lives" doesn't float anymore.

There are only two things certain in life...
1)death and 2) taxes, until you reach no. 1, expect to suffer no. 2

I'm not talking about letting anyone off the hook, I am making the point that people on here who are so quick to penalise OAP's for living longer seem to forget how much they have contributed, and I certainly do not agree with the suggestion that they sell their family homes because their family has moved on and their spouse may be no longer with them.

[gosuckonalemon]

Originally Posted by OldNotWIse

Exactly, some people seem to be living in some parallel Ireland where we still have a thriving property market. My Gran owns (yes owns she is not mortgaged up to her neck like most of us from the "instant gratification" generation) her own house that her and my Grandad worked all their lives for. Yes it has 4 bedrooms, the cheek of her staying there after her family moved on any my grandad died! This house is maybe worth 150k max - she is supposed to sell this and buy a one bed bungalow and still have a "lump sum"? erm.....

No, she isn't supposed to do anything.

However she needs to realize that a property tax is imminent and she will be expected to pay based on the size of the house.

[Zamboni]

Originally Posted by gosuckonalemon

No, she isn't supposed to do anything.

However she needs to realize that a property tax is imminent and she will be expected to pay based on the size of the house.

And what if she doesn't pay?
And incurs fines and interest.
And still doesn't pay.

Seriously, what is the worst they can throw at her?

[Snakeblood]

Originally Posted by Zamboni

And what if she doesn't pay?
And incurs fines and interest.
And still doesn't pay.

Seriously, what is the worst they can throw at her?

They take the fees out of the estate, eventually, I'd guess. No one wants to lock up OAPs.

[gosuckonalemon]

Originally Posted by Zamboni

And what if she doesn't pay?
And incurs fines and interest.
And still doesn't pay.

Seriously, what is the worst they can throw at her?

They will take it from her pension. Also the house cannot be sold/transferred to children until all taxes and fines are payed.

[Snakeblood]

Originally Posted by OldNotWIse

Money from the construction industry? Really?

Yep. 2.1 billion over the first National Development plan, and 2.7 was anticipated over the second one.

[username123]

Originally Posted by Snakeblood

They take the fees out of the estate, eventually, I'd guess. No one wants to lock up OAPs.

That is exactly what they will do.

My own parents had a judgement against the property, a lien on the house.

It was to do with some tax evasion in the 80s, the original sum was around 5k. It would be taken out of any sale proceeds including interest and penalties. My father never sold the house in life. After their deaths myself and my sibling sold the property. The solicitor contacted revenue in relation to the judgement and the amount due including interest and penalties was now just over 12k. BUT, because 12 years had passed and the person the judgement was against was dead, they agreed to settle for the original 5k.

So in short, if I was a pensioner, Id not be worried about judgements against the property.

Besides, pensioners successfully got the government to u turn on medical cards, if anyone could fight the property tax its them.

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by gosuckonalemon

No, she isn't supposed to do anything.

However she needs to realize that a property tax is imminent and she will be expected to pay based on the size of the house.

She did pay, and I am sure she will pay regardless of how much it goes up. I am finding it difficult to think of a way to make a tiered charge fair. It seems ok to say someone should pay more based on the size of their house but a large house outside of a city may still be worth less than a small one in a city. Then again those who bought in cities paid more already.. it's a tough one to call. I suppose it would have to be based on size AND location to make it fair, if it can ever be?

[OldNotWIse]

Originally Posted by Snakeblood

They take the fees out of the estate, eventually, I'd guess. No one wants to lock up OAPs.

That might be what a lot of people would do. I certainly wouldnt mind my parents doing this. My Dad is not fit for work however he slaved his whole life from 14 to 64 to build the house of his dreams. I would have no problem with him putting the fees against my inheritance. It's his to enjoy, not mine, and I would rather he didnt have to fork out money he can ill afford and enjoy his retirement than try to pay something that could just be written off against the property after he goes.