[blowtorch]

Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI

Which German bankers, exactly?

I know that Sean FitzPatrick wasn't German, I know he had 'gambling debts' from Anglo, so does that make the Anglo bailout justified?

Pick a few from here. http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Lis...110903209.html

[oscarBravo]

Originally Posted by Happyman42

What is wrong with suggesting that all the member states sit down and in a fair and equitable way work out what to do?

Nothing, it sounds like a really good idea. Ideally, they'd work out something that would stabilise the situation. In order to do that they'd have to co-ordinate their respective national policies in order to ensure that they were promoting good governance within the union.

Then they could put together a document built around those agreed principles of stability, co-ordination and governance. In order to have any effect, it would have to be a treaty that all would ratify; at least, all that wanted to participate in the shared approach that they had agreed among themselves.

So then having negotiated a treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance among the countries participating in the economic and monetary union, nobody could accuse them of not having sat down in a fair and equitable way and worked out what to do. Right?

[Am Chile]

Just cast my vote, turnout is slowly starting to pick up at the polling station.

[Happyman42]

Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI

And what should that course of action be, in your opinion?

I don't know, but I sure as hell will be involved with the discussion. And discussion and analysis of what happened is what is needed.

A common currency will never work unless all members sign up to it and it is an instrument of a centrally governed Europe, which is something that is anathema to me from a social and cultural point of view. But I think Europe is begining to see that. The failure of this Treaty to do anything substantive to fix the problem will see belief growing. That is if the Euro and consequently the EU hasn't collapsed and leaves Europe in tatters before that.
I have no idea how it will all pan out.

[hatrickpatrick]

Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI

And what should that course of action be, in your opinion?

I know this isn't addressed to me but I'll chip in here: Completely redesigning the financial and monetary system, and I mean fundamentally redesigning the concept of what money is, how it comes into circulation, firewalling the financial sector from the rest of society so they can't put us on the hook for their screwups, completely reorganizing what a "bank" is, etc.

In other words, going back to the very drawing board of currency and redesigning what it means. If we have the resources and knowledge to produce things, we shouldn't be held back by something we designed which isn't working as it should.

[Villain]

Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI

I can't make sense of that, it doesn't show what 'write down' Coveney is talking about, or when, and it doesn't show what 'write off' Kenny is talking about six months prior to the discussion with Conveney.

There's insufficient information for me to draw an informed conclusion, or opinion I'm afraid. I'm not going to accuse you of that though.

LOL It's pretty obvious, but ok

[PopeBuckfastXVI]

Originally Posted by blowtorch

Pick a few from here. http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Lis...110903209.html

How much did they get?

[PopeBuckfastXVI]

Originally Posted by Villain

LOL It's pretty obvious, but ok

Well explain it to me then please?

What exactly was Coveney talking about 'writing down' and what, exactly, was Kenny talking about 'writing off' and were those things the same thing?

If it's so obvious, you should have no problem educating me!

[PopeBuckfastXVI]

Originally Posted by hatrickpatrick

In other words, going back to the very drawing board of currency and redesigning what it means.

I'm not going to hold my breath on that one...

[blowtorch]

Originally Posted by carveone

The way I see it is that it was US bankers not German ones. Which is probably why we ended up with carrying the can. Besides, it's spilt milk - say Bob cannot pay his credit card bill and I offer to cover that bill at low interest (or zero) so he can survive. It wouldn't be right for Bob to turn around and say that credit card bill was reckless lending by the bank (even if it was) and then refuse to pay me back on that basis.

Anyway - don't forget to leave boards.ie for 10 minutes and actually vote! We could argue this till the cows come home but it all looks very silly if we don't get out there, in the rain, and back up those arguments with our tick mark!

Bit of a difference between a Credit Card Bill and Gambling.

Say Bob was a Gambler. He has a friend that works in a casino. His friend decides to pull a stroke for Bob, the gambler. - "Come in here and gamble. If you win that's great, but if it looks like you're going to lose, then I'll fix the cards for you, and guarantee that you won't lose anything - Don't worry, we'll just force the locals to give us money, tell them you've threatened us and this is protection money"

[Happyman42]

Originally Posted by oscarBravo

Nothing, it sounds like a really good idea. Ideally, they'd work out something that would stabilise the situation. In order to do that they'd have to co-ordinate their respective national policies in order to ensure that they were promoting good governance within the union.

Then they could put together a document built around those agreed principles of stability, co-ordination and governance. In order to have any effect, it would have to be a treaty that all would ratify; at least, all that wanted to participate in the shared approach that they had agreed among themselves.

So then having negotiated a treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance among the countries participating in the economic and monetary union, nobody could accuse them of not having sat down in a fair and equitable way and worked out what to do. Right?

Yes, after they take responsibility for their parts in what happened, not before. Right?

[blowtorch]

Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI

How much did they get?

Google it. You were smart enough to try insinuate that German bankers did not get anything. So now that you know that they did, do your own investigation.

[PopeBuckfastXVI]

Originally Posted by blowtorch

Bit of a difference between a Credit Card Bill and Gambling.

Say Bob was a Gambler. He has a friend that works in a casino. His friend decides to pull a stroke for Bob, the gambler. - "Come in here and gamble. If you win that's great, but if it looks like you're going to lose, then I'll fix the cards for you, and guarantee that you won't lose anything - Don't worry, we'll just force the locals to give us money, tell them you've threatened us and this is protection money"

Continuing your analogy, once the locals have given you their money, they can't afford rent, so they borrow money from a local credit union.

Then they realise they got taken for a ride by Bob and his friend so they tell the credit union they can whistle for their money?

[hatrickpatrick]

Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI

I'm not going to hold my breath on that one...

I know you're not, that's the problem. It needs to happen, but nobody is talking about it.

If a farmer produces the exact same amount of food this year as he did last year, and if there are still the exact same number of people willing to work for him, and the exact same number of people who need food, why should people be going hungrier this year because the oil for this machine isn't functioning properly?

If we have the exact same number of trained medical staff this year as last year, and the exact same number of people who need their services, why should A&E units have to close?

Supply and demand clearly isn't working when we have demand, we have supply, but the oil which makes that model work has hit a problem. Currency as an artificial concept shouldn't be able to change physical reality, the reality that we have what we need, we have the skills we need, etc.

If that system is holding us back from reaching the potential we could be, then we need to redesign it to more accurately reflect what it's physically possible for us to achieve.

[PopeBuckfastXVI]

Originally Posted by blowtorch

Google it. You were smart enough to try insinuate that German bankers did not get anything. So now that you know that they did, do your own investigation.

I didn't say they didn't get anything, I asked who they were and how much they got in response to a proposed plan to burn them. Well if you are trying to sell me on burning someone, I'd like to know who they are and a very good justification for doing it. Something a bit more nuanced than f*cking 'google it'.