[LIGHTNING]

Originally Posted by Mad_Lad

Not at all, we have gone form an electric car that can charge from 8 hours last year to an e.v that can charge in 30 mins from any public charge point, the E.S.B are upgrading their chargers to allow this to be possible, but currently the non upgraded chargers will charge in an hour. In the case of the Renault Zoe that is!

Show me an ice car that has had such a major development in just 1 year ?

I really have to go and find all the info? You said in your original post:

It's astonishing how fast electric vahicles are progressing, if only ice cars developed so fast, we could have had very fuel efficient cars decades ago!

Lets look at some quick examples off the top of my head:

1983 Porsche 911
3.2 Flat 6 207bhp
20+mpg
Co2 295

2012 Porsche 911
3.4 Flat 6 350bhp
30+mpg
Co2 194

The Porsche is nearly pushing twice as much power and does 50% better mpg and is vastly cleaner.

2011 Ford Focus 1.6
105bhp
35mpg

2012 Ford Focus 1.0
125bhp
55-60mpg
(30kgs lighter)

The modern petrol is light years ahead of what compared to 20/30 years ago. Look at FIATs twinair or VW`s TFSI engines. Trying running a old carb engine and see what it was like before modern fuel injection and ECU`s. I`m sure some of more technical posters could come up some more examples.

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by keithclancy

OT but
Deffo, I was looking at something like this if commuting by Train
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B004...sr=8-4&seller=

I also have a 'drinking' bike that I can afford to have robbed, the lock is worth more then the bike and a nicer more compfy beach cruiser for long day trips in the summer, dont need gears because the place is so flat

Sure that would be ideal for the train, just not sure of the quality of the battery., at least they were honest and said it had a 500 cycle life. However charging after every ride (or as ofter as you can) will ensure longer life. Leaving it unused for more than a month wouldn't be advisable. 1 cycle is 100-0% 0-100%

You can always "hack" it for more speed, or put a throttle on it depending on the electronic controller used, though the motor and battery will probably be the most limiting factor.

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by LIGHTNING

I really have to go and find all the info? You said in your original post:



Lets look at some quick examples off the top of my head:

1983 Porsche 911
3.2 Flat 6 207bhp
20+mpg
Co2 295

2012 Porsche 911
3.4 Flat 6 350bhp
30+mpg
Co2 194

The Porsche is nearly pushing twice as much power and does 50% better mpg and is vastly cleaner.

2011 Ford Focus 1.6
105bhp
35mpg

2012 Ford Focus 1.0
125bhp
55-60mpg
(30kgs lighter)

The modern petrol is light years ahead of what compared to 20/30 years ago. Look at FIATs twinair or VW`s TFSI engines. Trying running a old carb engine and see what it was like before modern fuel injection and ECU`s. I`m sure some of more technical posters could come up some more examples.

twice the mpg would be good but that is ideal conditions and people rarely achieve those figures.

Quote from autoexpress

Featuring a number of mechanical tweaks, the latest addition to the A4 line-up promises to return a remarkable 65.7mpg and emit only 112g/km of CO2. So, will its mix of upmarket appeal and supermini running costs be enough to beat its new-age rivals?

However, this test is more about reduced running costs than performance and poise – and that’s where the Audi struggles. Despite having fuel-saving kit such as stop-start and regenerative braking systems, the A4 could manage only 32.4mpg on our 40-mile commuting route. It returned a reasonable 39.7mpg on the test overall.[end quote]

In relation to the twin air Fiat

Quote

The engine isn’t refined, however. It needs lots of revs to get the car moving, and is one of the loudest engines in its class. Fortunately, the two-cylinder thrum adds character.[end quote]

Hardly progress!

the vag tsi's are great engines along with fiat's 1.4 turbo's. But most fail to deliver the claimed mpg and also means their C02 ratings must be way off too!

There is fierce competition to make ever more efficient cars, but in the end there is not much more they can do to the ice that will make them efficient enough to make a real difference to the pockets of motorists!

Even the what car reader reviews are full of reader reviews where people fail to get even close to the mpg figures claimed by car manufacturers.

[knifey_spoonie]

Whats the claimed range of a Leaf and what the real world most people get ??

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by knifey_spoonie

Whats the claimed range of a Leaf and what the real world most people get ??

The claimed range by Nissan is about 100 miles actual range varies between 60-110.

I personally believe range could be improved by ONLY applying regen to braking by the brake pedal and not by lifting off the throttle.

Costing is more efficient then regen. You would be quiet surprised how far you can go in neutral!

[knifey_spoonie]

Originally Posted by Mad_Lad

The claimed range by Nissan is about 100 miles actual range varies between 60-110.

I personally believe range could be improved by ONLY applying regen to braking by the brake pedal and not by lifting off the throttle.

Costing is more efficient then regen. You would be quiet surprised how far you can go in neutral!

Okay, so your previous post about Audi/Fiat/All Manufacturers not being able to reached claimed MPG is a MOOT point, do you agree??

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by knifey_spoonie

Okay, so your previous post about Audi/Fiat/All Manufacturers not being able to reached claimed MPG is a MOOT point, do you agree??

That wasn't the debate, that is a well known fact.

I was however talking about the progression from 8 hours charging to 30 mins in a year is quiet a substantial improvement to e.v's and no ice has had had any major improvement in such a short period of time.

Faster charging is more important than 400 miles range because faster charging offers the greatest benefit to the driver rather than carry around a very large heavy and much more expensive battery for the occasional long trip.

More range will be available with 2015 Leaf with NMC battery.

Remember an electric car with 300 miles range is available with the tesla model S, but at a huge cost, but by all means pay for such a battery if that is what you think you need, that's my opinion on it.

I can guarantee that if people had the choice of a 150, 250 or 350 mile range car and 5 min charging, I bet most people will choose the 150 mile range and 5 min charging to keep cost down! That is the way I would like to see electrc cars offered, when production ramps up and battery costs drop. It makes no sense to have 300 mile range if you can charge in 5 mins for 150 miles range and 150 miles range is not that far away!

[LIGHTNING]

Originally Posted by Mad_Lad

That wasn't the debate, that is a well known fact.

I was however talking about the progression from 8 hours charging to 30 mins in a year is quiet a substantial improvement to e.v's and no ice has had had any major improvement in such a short period of time.

Faster charging is more important than 400 miles range because faster charging offers the greatest benefit to the driver rather than carry around a very large heavy and much more expensive battery for the occasional long trip.

More range will be available with 2015 Leaf with NMC battery.

Remember an electric car with 300 miles range is available with the tesla model S, but at a huge cost, but by all means pay for such a battery if that is what you think you need, that's my opinion on it.

I can guarantee that if people had the choice of a 150, 250 or 350 mile range car and 5 min charging, I bet most people will choose the 150 mile range and 5 min charging to keep cost down! That is the way I would like to see electrc cars offered, when production ramps up and battery costs drop. It makes no sense to have 300 mile range if you can charge in 5 mins for 150 miles range and 150 miles range is not that far away!

To the people who are willing to spend 25k on a new electric car. I dont want to spend that money, I`ll buy a car for 1-2k and pay for the petrol. 20k buys you alot of petrol.

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by LIGHTNING

To the people who are willing to spend 25k on a new electric car. I dont want to spend that money, I`ll buy a car for 1-2k and pay for the petrol. 20k buys you alot of petrol.

The zoe will cost 16,500 Euro's and battery rental + electricity works out around the same as a 55 mpg car.

If you do a lot of driving a car that costs 1-2k is not always going to last long, so you may need to change your car more frequently, so in the end the cost may end up the same. Add up the maintenance too!

I would rather buy a decent car and drive it for a few years and pay less for fuel.

[LIGHTNING]

Originally Posted by Mad_Lad

The zoe will cost 16,500 Euro's and battery rental + electricity works out around the same as a 55 mpg car.

If you do a lot of driving a car that costs 1-2k is not always going to last long, so you may need to change your car more frequently, so in the end the cost may end up the same. Add up the maintenance too!

I would rather buy a decent car and drive it for a few years and pay less for fuel.

Nonsense just because a car is cheap it doesn't mean it wont last. Plenty of people here on the forum including myself do it. Whats the rent on the battery 70e a month? Thats more than I spend on petrol a month.

[Sesshoumaru]

Originally Posted by LIGHTNING

Nonsense just because a car is cheap it doesn't mean it wont last. Plenty of people here on the forum including myself do it. Whats the rent on the battery 70e a month? Thats more than I spend on petrol a month.

My daily commuting machine is a 17 year old Ducati, so I don't put down old machines! However being able to last doesn't mean they can't potentially cost a lot to maintain as well. Some will be low maintenance, others won't, in this country at least older cars haven't been looked after. I've met people in this country who thought it was a great saving that they got away without servicing their car for 2 or 3 years. Before the Leaf, last 3 vehicles I bought were all bought in London. Flight over and ferry back the same day.

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by LIGHTNING

Nonsense just because a car is cheap it doesn't mean it wont last. Plenty of people here on the forum including myself do it. Whats the rent on the battery 70e a month? Thats more than I spend on petrol a month.

Holy crap ? 75 a month ? that's nearly our weekly fuel bill!

But you live in the Dublin, so I can only assume you can take a bus, luas most places or cycle. Nice!

So yeah a 2k car might last at that rate but not at the mileage we have to clock up!

Lets face it, most people in towns and cities throughout the country could use their cars far less than they do but they like comfort and are paying a high price for it!

But the debate is more about a new car V Leaf V Zoe new and the Zoe being the cheapest E.V yet, actually the Twizy is probably the cheapest. But that's a different league, but still capable.

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru

My daily commuting machine is a 17 year old Ducati, so I don't put down old machines! However being able to last doesn't mean they can't potentially cost a lot to maintain as well. Some will be low maintenance, others won't, in this country at least older cars haven't been looked after. I've met people in this country who thought it was a great saving that they got away without servicing their car for 2 or 3 years. Before the Leaf, last 3 vehicles I bought were all bought in London. Flight over and ferry back the same day.

Yes it is hard to get a car that has been looked after and that has not being clocked in this country.

It depends a lot on the mileage you do. I like having a more modern car if I can than an older one, I could afford a better one if I hadn't large fuel bills to pay.

That's why when electric cars become available at a decent price, that will be my next purchase, simply because by that time it will probably be time to change anyway and I would rather the option that my money go into a car than on tax on fuel. I would rather choose where to spend my money and not have the Government dictate that for me!

Why should I drive an old car because fuel costs too much ?

Why would I buy an older car when I don't know if it's being looked after ? an e.v simply won't have most of the maintenance issues, no oil to change, no belts, plugs etc

[Bigus]

The leaf has no monthly battery rental cost unlike Renault afaik .

Just looking at the scenarios brought up by various posters here I can see a big loss of motoring revenue to the Irish government in the medium term by the take up of evs , and this wil have big impact on other taxation ,

unless of course they start penalising ev in future

but , like rowing back on the low co2 tax this is going to be hard to do for the gov.

Also what's to stop retro fitting of modern electric kits to older cars with ice removed to produce a tax efficient low cost compromise ?

[Mad_Lad]

Originally Posted by Bigus

The leaf has no monthly battery rental cost unlike Renault afaik .

Just looking at the scenarios brought up by various posters here I can see a big loss of motoring revenue to the Irish government in the medium term by the take up of evs , and this wil have big impact on other taxation ,

unless of course they start penalising ev in future

but , like rowing back on the low co2 tax this is going to be hard to do for the gov.

Also what's to stop retro fitting of modern electric kits to older cars with ice removed to produce a tax efficient low cost compromise ?

The leaf costs 30,000 to buy, the Zoe 16,500

Battery rental and electricity works out about the same, maybe cheaper than a car that can get a real 55 mpg per tank.

You can indeed convert any car to electric, however it wouldn't be as efficient and you can't put the batteries under the floor like in a proper e.v.

The biggest thing is, you won't get your hands on the good batteries like in the leaf or Zoe, not a chance in hell. But if you only want 20-30 miles then it is possible. Using LiFeP04 batteries.

As batteries improve and get smaller it will be even more possible to convert older cars, but you won't be able to charge as fast because I doubt the esb would let you near 40,000 watts with an uncertified e.v!