[jank]

Originally Posted by _Gawd_

The people are not to blame - every Tom, Dick and Harry went into AIB and came out with a loan. Why wouldn't they? .

Serious? I am flabbergasted at this statement.

You absolve responsibility of the people, yet claim everyone walked into a bank out of their own free will to get a loan, yet are not to blame for a property bubble. Serious identity issues there.

"I didnt kill the man Garda, the gun did"

[jank]

Originally Posted by View

Just because Enda K doesn't agree with your political opinions doesn't make him a facist.

Agreed, otherwise prove to us what his facist tendancys are?
Is he trying to ban other political parties for example? Or passing legislation that will discriminate on the basis of sex/religion/race etc.?

[jank]

On Enda, I agree he is doing better than allot of people are giving him credit for and I knew he would surprise people. The media don't hold people from rural Ireland with much light. If your a minister or a leader who is not from Dublin, you are going to get more stick. thats a given.

At least he has a strategic plan in place to get Ireland out of the mire they were in. All you have to do is go back 12-18 months and look at the state of the country then under FF and Cowen and co. The country was in a perpetual crisis and there was no knowing how bad it was going to get. There was times where you actually feared for the future viability of the state.

At least now we have a bit of stability. Bond yields have halved. Negotiations under way on the promissory notes that will hopefully ease the debt burden. Greek debt is now isolated to a certain extent so a more open and liberal deal on Ireland is still possible. There is talk of entering the bond market sometime next year which would be great news.

On the home front, Croke Park is still there but that is Labours baby and I believe that when/if the "reforms" promised by the unions fail to materialise then Enda and FG will take out the axe and start chopping. They are playing the long game here.

I would like more though on the political reforms front and I understand the constitutional convention is due to be held later in the year. I also understand that the eyes of the government are probably on other things like the EU treaty, promissory notes etc so they cant do everything you want in one year. Hopefully though they will get their asses in gear on this sooner rather than latter.


On a side note, it is natural to think that your own leaders and politicans are the worst in the world and they bring a certain shame onto the country. OK, Cowen was pretty bad alright in appearance and ability.

Here in Australia lots of people hate Julia Gillard but what they hated more was Kevin Rudd who was foreign affairs minister. He was seen as aloof, weak and needy. Compared to the strong and steely Chinese, Israelis, Russians. Everyone thinks their own leaders are the worst when in reality other countries don't really care.

Enda carries himself well enough, talks well enough, and plays a good game in drumming up positivity about Ireland. You would swear that some people would want him to talk Ireland down judging by some of the Joe Duffy brigade.

"The country is on its knees, Joe!!!!!, nd there Enda's talking Ireland up to American Businessmen, its a disgrace Joe!!!!!"

[Carlos_Ray]

Originally Posted by darkman2

Sorry to burst the bubble but the average Irish person is partly to blame for this mess. That's a fact. No gun was put to the head of "average" Irish people that went mad on credit which was a darn large percentage of "average" Irish people. People choose to live beyond their means. Now they get the swing of it and must take responsibility for their failings in financial discipline.

The recession wasn't caused by the "average" person though. It was caused by failures and corruption at a much higher level in global financial institutions (including Ireland). The knock on effect in Ireland, uncovered a lot of flaws within Irish society, one of which was people living in houses etc, they couldn't afford. However, as was already mentioned this situation was orchestrated by the banks, who not only advised people to take out loans and buy property etc, but actually scared them into doing so. In the last three years of the boom the message coming out from the majority of government associated economists was " if you don't get on the property ladder now, you'll never be able to afford to get on it." The insane real estate rush in Ireland was great for politicians, banks, and builders, as brown envelopes were thrown around like confetti.Despite this, Enda Kenny (like his predecessors) has refused to take on the big boys who are truly responsible for the disaster, preferring instead to let average Joe take the brunt of blame and cost.

Of course Irish people should honour their debts, however, to blame them for what happened with the economy at best betrays a total lack of understanding of economic affairs, and at worst is a cowardly calculated act designed to divert attention.

[southsiderosie]

MOD NOTE:

As a reminder, the topic of this thread is Enda Kenny's performance as taoiseach, not the cause(s) of the economic crisis. I know there is a fine line here when discussing how Kenny has led the country in a time of economic crisis, but let's not get bogged down in the 'whose fault is it anyway' debate.

[later12]

I have two problems with Enda Kenny

(i) I share the growing concern that Enda Kenny doesn't fully engage with economic arguments pertaining to the European debt crisis. That's acceptable when if one thinks that he sees himself more as an executive chairman than a managing director. The awkward truth for Kenny is that when he is sitting at a table in European and Eurogroup summits, his role is as a director. His role is strategy,not oversight. So a lack of understanding of the economic and financial detail is problematic when we are sitting at home expecting him to be making arguments on strategy.

(ii)He appears to have established no policy unit as exists in many other jurisdictions whereby an 'executive chairman' type of leader can oversee the adherence of his Government to established policy direction, and which can evaluate Government performance in meeting targets and deadlines.

All we seem to have gotten so far are vague, qualitative assessments of Ministers' performances based one interview conducted by Kenny himself.

At a time of such crucial structural reforms, Enda Kenny needs a policy unit to alert him to Ministerial progress on an ongoing basis, alerting him to any problems that require immediate attention, and to evaluate performance in line with changes in the national economic outlook. To date, there seems to be no objective basis for this sort of continuous assessment. I find that strange, and slightly worrying.

[_Gawd_]

Originally Posted by View

Just because Enda K doesn't agree with your political opinions doesn't make him a facist.

Fascism is state power coupled with corporate power. Almost all western governments across the globe now participate in this little backstratch. The modern word is called corporatism. FG = support bailed out banks = fascists. Or has fascism now become mainstream, does this mean we must tolerate it??

Originally Posted by jank

Serious? I am flabbergasted at this statement.

You absolve responsibility of the people, yet claim everyone walked into a bank out of their own free will to get a loan, yet are not to blame for a property bubble. Serious identity issues there.

"I didnt kill the man Garda, the gun did"

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't blame the people - I blame the ECB printing money and the banks not operating under business principles. Let the people borrow as much as they want so long as the banks fall - it's their loss for being too stupid to compete in the modern world.

[_Gawd_]

Originally Posted by jank

Agreed, otherwise prove to us what his facist tendancys are?
Is he trying to ban other political parties for example? Or passing legislation that will discriminate on the basis of sex/religion/race etc.?

Your first mistake was thinking fascism only came in the form of Hitler. It has many faces.

[Godge]

Originally Posted by darkman2

I have been fairly impressed with Enda Kenny since he became Taoiseach. I did not think he would be good at all before he got the job and like many thought FG should have got rid of him before the last election.

How wrong I was to think that now. He has proven to be able to represent us very well abroad and I am really surprised at that. He has a fantastic energy and drive about him. I was just looking at some tweet from a couple of traders on the wall street trading floor who seemed pretty impressed and he seems to be handling interviews very well. And he LOOKS the part. And that is something we have not been use to for a VERY long time. It's refreshing to see our leader even dressed properly.

What i'm wondering here is is my reassessment of Enda Kenny fair OR has it to do with getting over the shock of Cowen of Taoiseach rather then Enda's abilities (let's face it the smurfs would have given us more credibility then Cowen)?

And is my reassessment shared? I think he is doing quite well and deserves a bit of credit.

Have to agree with your assessment of Kenny.

Some people on this thread need anger management courses.

[_Gawd_]

Originally Posted by Godge

Have to agree with your assessment of Kenny.

Some people on this thread need anger management courses.

And some people need educational courses.

[southsiderosie]

MOD NOTE:

Let's stop the sniping and get back on topic (which is not fascism!).

There will not be any more warnings on this thread.

[Godge]

Originally Posted by _Gawd_

And some people need educational courses.

I couldn't agree with you more.

If people were educated enough to understand that the crisis was brought about by a combination of ten years of stupid FF policies on spending and taxation, a poorly regulated banking system, an international downturn, a monumentally stupid decision of the FF government in September 2008 to guarantee the banks and most of all, the stupidity of the Irish electorate both in continually re-electing that FF government and also indulging themselves in an illogical frenzy to become propety owners whatever the price.

That education combined with a course to direct their anger away from the people sorting out the mess (the current government) and to working out the issues rather than casting blame.

The OP is right, Kenny has done well, we are further down the road to recovery than I thought possible when they were elected.

[_Gawd_]

Originally Posted by Godge

I couldn't agree with you more.

If people were educated enough to understand that the crisis was brought about by a combination of ten years of stupid FF policies on spending and taxation, a poorly regulated banking system, an international downturn, a monumentally stupid decision of the FF government in September 2008 to guarantee the banks and most of all, the stupidity of the Irish electorate both in continually re-electing that FF government and also indulging themselves in an illogical frenzy to become propety owners whatever the price.

That education combined with a course to direct their anger away from the people sorting out the mess (the current government) and to working out the issues rather than casting blame.

The OP is right, Kenny has done well, we are further down the road to recovery than I thought possible when they were elected.

Fianna Fail were stupid, but no more stupid than other governments across the world. The international downturn is not some unexplained phenomena. Austrians have been predicting this for years. It was Ludwig von Mises that predicted the great depression in the 20's. It's not a mystery and it's infuriating the way we see these people on TV looking like nobody knew what happened...it's ludicrous, it just doesn't mathematically add up. You cannot inflate the money supply...period! When will they EVER LEARN????

Regulation does nothing..we don't need more regulation, we need companies to go bust, simple. When there is talk of regulation, who are the first one's to be called? The top dogs in that particular industry getting the bailouts. It was the banks regulating and it will be the banks regulating their own industry again. Is there anything more ridiculous. Forget about regulations...if someone acts the maggot, they go out of business no ifs buts or maybes about it. Then they'll learn...quick.

We're nowhere near recovery because you seem to be forgetting one very important fact. This is not the first recession. There were many before and there will be many to come. Unless the economic system is changed, we'll continue these booms and busts.

[JoeGil]

Have to agree that Kenny has performed well since coming into government.

He has been very successful in molding the two coalition parties into a cohesive and effective government.

The economy has stabilised and while there is a long hard road ahead people can at least now see light at the end of the tunnel.

Internationally he has strengthened relationships with Europe and US and this will benefit the country in the long run.

[kippy]

Good points:
Relationships with UK, US, China, India appear to have been strengthened and improved upon.
He is definetly a far better public figure than Cowan and is up there with the best when it comes to delivering a speech.
He appears genuine and has a grasp on many facets of Irish life - he projects an honest image.
Some reputational damage has been reversed to a point.
The apparent change in attitude to the sex scandals that have engulfed the church is welcome.
A lot of what was promised is being delivered, or at least the process has begun.


Bad points.
There have been some complete turnarounds in what was promised versus what has been delivered - some of this can be put down to constraints they are under but they were aware of this at some point.
Still a large amount of political reform required. Still very little accountability, one only has to look at special advisors, the inkgate incident etc.

We are still at the mercy of EU/IMF and will be for a long time to come.
Yet again there is a lot of "turning the corner talk". We wont get close to turning any corners until the final of the "negative" budgets are out of the way. That is, on current policy a least 4 years down the road, and that is very very much dependent on figures which, in my opinion are way off.


There are lots more I could add but they are the main ones.