[Overheal]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

I dont understand what you mean, but what I believe Nodin ment was that Islam is not a race, therefore you cannot be "rascist" towards it.

Semantically no. Realistically yes. It's simple. See a person of arab descent? Automagically presume they are a radical muslim terrorist. Then you are hating them not because they are Persian or whatever but because of the superimposed muslim beliefs you have placed on them.

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by Overheal

Semantically no. Realistically yes. It's simple. See a person of arab descent? Automagically presume they are a radical muslim terrorist. Then you are hating them not because they are Persian or whatever but because of the superimposed muslim beliefs you have placed on them.

I think that falls more under the category of rascism still, ie judging someone by their race. I could be wrong though.

[SamHarris]

Originally Posted by Pdfile

religion is a thought by man, not a belief; its merely a tool to get what you want.


anyone who believes in it shouldn't be fully respected.

I dont know why your addressing this at me, Id be the last person to say that religion should have special protection from criticism just because people believe it came from a voice in a whirl wind. Religions are just ideologys to me, some more damaging than others and in different ways.

[Toby Take a Bow]

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Hardly, there have been many progroms throughout the middle easts past. Yes, so what your saying is that Israel is responsible for Muslims hatred for Jews througout the world? I am saying that firstly it is a piss poor excuse, secondly Islam is the one religion where this sense of self rightous outrage seems to seep throughout the community, justifying murders throughout the world, thirdly your ascertian that it began in the 1940's is entirelly false. It may be exasterbated following the states creation, however if you believe it is merely the treatment of Palestinians is the sole cause of the massive amounts of anti semetism your high. The fact that Palestinians are often treated as bad or worse by their Arab brothers is often ignored, the ethnic factor matters much more than Western supporters of Palestine should be comfortbale with.

I'm not saying it's not a piss-poor excuse, but if we can determine whether there was a notable rise in anti-Jewish feeling post-Israel, then addressing this issue may help in lessening the anti-Jewish feeling. A lot of ignorance can be helped through education (and in general, better standards of living). I'm well aware that there were pograms before the establishment of Israel, but I'd be interested to see whether they rose significantly after the state's existence.

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Next person that I have to say this to is going on a damn ignore list.

I have pointed out the vast differences within Islam about 5 times now. Read. More. Carefully.

I see you've clarified your position in later posts. I do think it's important to use 'extremists' instead of simply 'muslims', regardless of what you may mean. If a group perceives they are labelled with the tags of the extremes, it can be difficult to address those issues.

Originally Posted by SamHarris

It is not "tarring with one brush" to recognise those statistics do not represent an extremly tolerant society.

And other statistics would suggest that Christians are intolerant towards Muslims and Jews. Another issue that needs to be addressed.

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Thats because the situations are not analagious. Anders was a Christian who killed for political reasons. Mohammed Atta was a Muslim who killed believing he would be rewarded in the after life, inspired to do what he did explicitly by religion. If you cant see how that is different, really I dont know how to make it much clearer.

I would argue that there is a strong 'political' aspect to 9/11. There was far more of a religious bent to it than to the Anders massacre, but it's still important.

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Make it recent history, and once again like I said a few times now by far the most Islam inspired violence is carried out in Islamic countries, against sects those people believe are apostasy. Last time I bothered checking it was 600 cases in Pakistan alone in 2009. The opinion that this is "right" is as high as 30% in Britian. If this is indicitive of a tolerant religion to you, what would it take for it to become "intolerant"?

It's indicitative of intolerance within the religion, not of an intolerant religion.

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Wahabism most definitly is.

Wahabism is a minor extremist sect. The reason for its notoriety is because it is popular amongst some members of the Saud family, and a large proportion of their subjects. If Saudi Arabia didn't have oil, we wouldn't hear that much about it.

Originally Posted by SamHarris

Again, irrelevant when so many individualy take it upon themselves to support various groups and be intolerant, as again the polls have shown.

And statistics can show that Christians are intolerant towards Jews and Muslims.