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05-03-2012, 13:27   #61
foggy_lad
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Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )
That will surely not be allowed? would Data protection legislation not protect passengers from this kind of intrusion?
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05-03-2012, 13:39   #62
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Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
Once we chip the passes and force a tag-on, we can audit the use. There are several data mining programs that can be used to check fraudulent use.

( BTW the same should be done for all season tickets across all modes )
Without wishing to steal your thunder Trellheim,you are on the right track ( )

One of the less reported aspects of Joan Burtons tenure thus far in the DSP is the belated recognition of just how much expensive legwork can be eradicated by judicious sharing of already stored data.

This sharing and x-referencing has now begun within the DSP over several levels and is showing substantial results.

However,one element which many older folk will have problems with is the presentation of a Pass to a reader or driver.(Although the same demographic in Northern Ireland have no such problem )

Large numbers of my regulars merely tap their breast and usher in whomever happens to be beside them in the full expectation of no questions being asked.

However when I do my job and ask to see the relevant entitlement the following scenario is the usual result....

Quote:
Jehuty42: I witnessed two separate incidents of older passengers getting very indignant when the driver insisted on asking to see their pass, rather than letting them just walk on.
.

Again,I have to remark upon the entirely different mindset of the Northern Ireland "Senior SmartPass Concession".......probably something to do with that last word.....Concession ?

I would also have to differ with Foggy_Lad in his opinion that the substantial number of folk availing of Free Travel on misappropriated,outdated or otherwise illicit documents will simply shrug their shoulders and suddenly pay up....Not a Chance.
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05-03-2012, 14:04   #63
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will you allow them travel if they don't pay up?
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05-03-2012, 16:49   #64
trellheim
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That will surely not be allowed? would Data protection legislation not protect passengers from this kind of intrusion?
It isn't a DP violation, for example, if the concepts are

a: to establish eligibility for use. DSP could require CIE companies to provide usage data to establish a basis for payment.

b. Revenue enforcement; if the same pass is used on widely separated parts of the transport network within a short timeframe it's likely someone's riding illegally.

All goes to show that as long as the data is collected for certain clearly defined purposes and not otherwise.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Ticke...ravel-Scheme-/
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06-03-2012, 00:16   #65
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Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
It isn't a DP violation, for example, if the concepts are

a: to establish eligibility for use. DSP could require CIE companies to provide usage data to establish a basis for payment.

This would have to be anonymous data not linking individual users to any particular route but only identifying a fare for the purpose of payment

b. Revenue enforcement; if the same pass is used on widely separated parts of the transport network within a short timeframe it's likely someone's riding illegally.

This facility is already available by using the pps number on all Rail tickets issued but Irish Rail fraudulently issue return tickets to most who ask for a single so had to stop using the pps number for fraud prevention!

Their fraud is facilitating travel pass fraud


All goes to show that as long as the data is collected for certain clearly defined purposes and not otherwise.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Ticke...ravel-Scheme-/
There are rules about using data collected by such systems and just because someone has an entitlement to free travel is not a licence to ride an intercity train through their civil rights!
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06-03-2012, 04:00   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foggy_lad View Post
This would have to be anonymous data not linking individual users to any particular route but only identifying a fare for the purpose of payment
All it's doing is linking a ticket/pass to travel and routes. While the ticket/pass number and route data may be available to a number of bodies the contact details behind the number would be restricted and hence no DP breach.
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06-03-2012, 09:46   #67
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All it's doing is linking a ticket/pass to travel and routes. While the ticket/pass number and route data may be available to a number of bodies the contact details behind the number would be restricted and hence no DP breach.
Why is there no free travel smart card already if it is all that simple? I thought the hold up was due to data protection issues? There is a leap card of sorts now but still no word of when or even if there will definitely be a free travel version or if the free travel smart card still being talked about will even be compatible.
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06-03-2012, 11:41   #68
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Originally Posted by foggy_lad View Post
Why is there no free travel smart card already if it is all that simple? I thought the hold up was due to data protection issues? There is a leap card of sorts now but still no word of when or even if there will definitely be a free travel version or if the free travel smart card still being talked about will even be compatible.
You thought incorrectly Foggy_Lad.

The decision to convert the Free Travel Pass to contactless card has already (belatedly) been taken.

As with most Civil Service related projects,the Free Travel Pass issue revolved around the DSP seeking the cheapest possible option open to it.

Up to very recently the Free Travel Scheme was essentially an interdepartmental transfer of funds,with the CIE group being the the largest recipient by a long shot.

However,with the advance in Public Transport Ticketing Technology,it rapidly became apparent that maintaining the tried and trusted Annual Lump Sum, Corn Flakes Box combination was now becoming a VERY large obstacle indeed.

One of the major delays to the LeapCard project was prevarication on the DSP's part about whether it would integrate with LeapCard (An ideal,discreet and sensible solution,which SHOULD have been insisted upon at the outset of LeapCard 12 years ago).

The final decision by the DSP to "Get-Smart" was only taken in late 2010 with a further delay then ensuing as to which contactless protocol was to be utilized.

The current situation is the DSP putting the final touches to it's Smart Card launch,which remember,is to cover all current DSP payments.

http://www.cfit.ie/news-and-commenta...rvicesmartcard

Some of the concerns supposedly worrying individuals re "Privacy" are thoroughly dealt with in this 2011 report prepared for the EU Commission.

http://www.piafproject.eu/ref/PIAF_D1_21_Sept_2011.pdf

The Irish section occupies Pages 75-85.

The paragraph I felt most succinctly dealt with the privacy issue reads thus....

Quote:
Arts 40-44 of the Irish Constitution (1937) provide for the fundamental rights protection.
However,the Constitution does not explicitly refer to the protection of privacy.
According to the Irish Supreme Court,an individual may invoke Article 40(3)(1) to established an implied right to privacy: "The State guarantees in it's laws to respect,and as far as practicable,by it's laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen"
The DSP's new Smart Card will be the primary personal record of the holders DSP information (Including Medical records).

My reading of the Constitutional summation appears to indicate that this "privacy" issue comes far down the line of stuff the DSP is worrying about.

The alternative,of course,is to pay one's fare and thereby stay under the radar ?
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06-03-2012, 13:24   #69
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Using PPS number on tickets IS a DP breach if I recall correctly, as it leads to identity theft.

this problems been solved several times though and in line with DP.

If you "Paddy Bus Rider" want to ride a bus using a pass, using available data sources to check your eligibility to do so seems reasonable. Further, using that same data to check that the same pass isn't tagging on all over the network is also reasonable.

Now if you wanted to make a case that the data should be anonymized after a few days ( used for no more than is needed ) then I'd be all on your side. that way you can track ridership without going back to names.
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06-03-2012, 13:40   #70
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Am I alone in wondering why DSP card holders can't be moved to Leap cards or other conventional annual travel passes, along with the appropiate ID cards? That way, those who qualify for free travel get sent out their appropiate pass and the old cards are discounted. Granted, some people will have issues getting ID cards and there will be those who have companion passes but they would be in the minority and it could be addressed with some forethought. CIE would benefit as they would be in a better position to keep track of how many passes are issued and how many trips are made on them, making their passenger surveying a lot easier. Passes can be cancelled if abused, lost or if people no longer are eligible though changing circumstances, death, emigration etc.
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06-03-2012, 13:43   #71
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Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
Using PPS number on tickets IS a DP breach if I recall correctly, as it leads to identity theft.

this problems been solved several times though and in line with DP.

If you "Paddy Bus Rider" want to ride a bus using a pass, using available data sources to check your eligibility to do so seems reasonable. Further, using that same data to check that the same pass isn't tagging on all over the network is also reasonable.

Now if you wanted to make a case that the data should be anonymized after a few days ( used for no more than is needed ) then I'd be all on your side. that way you can track ridership without going back to names.
Yes this is how I was seeing any personal data being used in relation to the free travel scheme, only used to prevent fraudulent misuse and data only kept for as long as is necessary to prevent fraudulent use.

http://www.piafproject.eu/ref/PIAF_D1_21_Sept_2011.pdf
Quote:
Arts. 40-44 of the Irish Constitution (1937) provide for the fundamental rights protection.
However, the Constitution does not explicitly refer to the protection of privacy. According to
the Irish Supreme Court, an individual may invoke Art. 40(3)(1) to establish an implied right
to privacy: “the State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws
to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.”9 The European Convention of
Human Rights Act, 2003 gave further effect of the ECHR in Irish law.
this says to me that the guarantee to respect the right to privacy of citizens is absolute and that the right to a defence and vindication of those rights by the state and law is subject to the practicality of the defence and vindication.
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06-03-2012, 14:18   #72
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As a paying customer, should I not have privacy too? I don't want everyone to know I'm not using a free travel pass when they see my shameful regular ticket. I don't want them to know how much I'm paying when I have to say it to the bus driver. My constitutional right to privacy is being infringed every day on public transport.
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06-03-2012, 14:43   #73
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Originally Posted by Losty Dublin View Post
Am I alone in wondering why DSP card holders can't be moved to Leap cards or other conventional annual travel passes, along with the appropiate ID cards? That way, those who qualify for free travel get sent out their appropiate pass and the old cards are discounted. Granted, some people will have issues getting ID cards and there will be those who have companion passes but they would be in the minority and it could be addressed with some forethought. CIE would benefit as they would be in a better position to keep track of how many passes are issued and how many trips are made on them, making their passenger surveying a lot easier. Passes can be cancelled if abused, lost or if people no longer are eligible though changing circumstances, death, emigration etc.
For many years the option has been there to create a new card whether a smart card or photo-id card for use by free travel pass holders but nothing was ever done as there was plenty of money and rather than try to regulate who had a pass they were too busy thinking of ways of adding more people to the list of those who qualify.

One Very simple way to almost completely cut out fraud overnight is to change the rules of the scheme so that a passport or Gardai age card is required to use your pass. the photopass available is useless as anyone can go and claim they are the pass holder and get the photopass.
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06-03-2012, 14:57   #74
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Originally Posted by foggy_lad View Post
One Very simple way to almost completely cut out fraud overnight is to change the rules of the scheme so that a passport or Gardai age card is required to use your pass. the photopass available is useless as anyone can go and claim they are the pass holder and get the photopass.
they cant do that
some people dont have a photo id of any type!
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06-03-2012, 15:03   #75
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they cant do that
some people dont have a photo id of any type!
They can easily get a Gardai Age card.
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