Boards.ie

robertb · 29-02-2012, 20:22

I left a poor seller feedback that has been removed. I'd like to know why.

Here's the ad.

http://www.adverts.ie/running-track-...er-305/1392826

BengaLover · 29-02-2012, 20:33

You jumped in on the ad presuming that the person saying 'pm sent' was trying to deal off thread.
On Adverts you get a time frame within which to communicate with a seller - sometimes if you go outside that time frame you cant send a pm even if you have done a transaction with the seller - you get a message saying 'you cannot pm the seller as you have not made an offer on any of his items' (or something to that effect)
In that case, and I have done it myself, you have to go to one of their active ads and make a comment on it, and then you can pm them.
Presumably the person commenting first was doing this, and your assumptions were wrong.
You left feedback for someone you didnt do a transaction with which is against the rules, so maybe its you that isnt clear on Adverts rules here.

robertb · 29-02-2012, 20:39

That first comment isn't the issue. The issue is that I made a deal with the seller to buy the item after that and he then put it up for sale and sold it to someone else. I left the seller negative feedback which was later removed.

In fact somene else on that thread reported the ad here and Eddie himself saw it as a rule breach.

See here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...5#post77336905

Yet the feedback I left was removed. I'd like whoever removed that feedback to explain why. Doesn't seem right.

Lazarus2.0 · 29-02-2012, 21:16

I'm not sure who removed the feedback but on reading the ad I can understand why it might have been removed .
Throughout the thread your offer was conditional on photos being supplied - they weren't and there was ultimately no deal agreed between you . With no committment made feedback isn't appropriate .

IMO It's a very close call in this situation . Your last comment would have set the deal in place had you not added " Anyway, the most important thing is the pics." . Unfortunately that left the agreement re postage as conditional and a seller is within their rights to accept an unconditional offer over yours .
That's not to say that the ad was conducted entirely within the rules but admins are dealing with that on the other support thread .

You : ... Offer asking - €60
Seller : are you making an offer?
You : Yes I'll give you the asking price for it if it's in clean condition. You mentioned it was only used a few times so I pesume it's "as new"?
Would you post some photos of what's being sold please...watch, leads, power cable etc
Seller : @robertb:It's in my old house just moved. it's 'as new' no damage. but only comes with the usb.(also charges device)
can you collect from rathmines or tallaght?
You : Hi. I'd need to see decent photos of the item.
I'm out in Meath so it would be a very long way for me to go to discover the item was less than spotless. I'd need to see it first.
Seller : @robertb:I'll get them up shortly. you ok to pay for postage then?
You : Yeah no problem with the postage. I presume it won't come to a lot?
Anyway, the most important thing is the pics.

robertb · 29-02-2012, 21:25

Sorry I don't agree at all. He agreed to post pictures. If he hadn't then fair enough but he did. The deal was set. It was me he was dealling with.

If he decided that photos weren't available he should have said that me to instead of just throwing the item up for sale again. It sold one minute later.

Eddie looked at this and said himself he felt the rules had been breached so I'm not happy about how this has been handled. I don't believe that my feedback should have been removed. The sellers response to the feedback was "just got a better deal somewhere else...sorry bro".

Lazarus2.0 · 29-02-2012, 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertb

He agreed to post pictures. If he hadn't then fair enough but he did.

Agreed . The seller should have posted pics if they said they would . However your offer remained conditional on their provision and was trumped by unconditional offers before the seller had a reasonable amount of time to post any pics .

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertb

Eddie looked at this and said himself he felt the rules had been breached so I'm not happy about how this has been handled. I don't believe that my feedback should have been removed.

I'd expect the rule breach to be where an unconditional offer was overlooked but as I said earlier that's being dealt with by Eddie on the other thread .

This thread is about the feedback removal and with no transaction between you feedback isn't valid .

robertb · 29-02-2012, 22:05

Yes I understand you're interpretation of events. I just don't agree with them.

I had an agreement with the seller. It should have been seen through.
If another moderator looked at this and felt the same then my point is valid. If it isn't valid then what rule did Eddie feel the seller broke?

Just because the feedback was removed doesn't necessarily mean it should have been.

**Steve** · 29-02-2012, 22:26

Robert, it's always been the case here that when we see two offers:

Bidder 1: "I offer asking IF <insert condition here>"

Bidder 2: " I offer asking"

Bidder 2's offer is considered better there unless the seller agrees to & fulfils the conditions in bidder 1's offer before bidder 2 offers.

In this case you were rightly being cautious by asking for pictures, bidder 2 was not so cautious and offered blind - that may be to their detriment if the goods are not up to scratch but that's the risk they take in doing so.

There's loads more fish in the sea so I wouldn't worry about it, I'm sure another one will be offered for sale before long.

robertb · 29-02-2012, 22:38

I'm not worried about it...if "it" refers to the watch. It's not about the watch it's about the principle of the thing.

And it's not about making a conditional offer either. If I made a conditional offer and someone else improved it then fair enough. But I made a conditional offer and the seller accepted it....he accepted the conditions. That's the point. He accepted the offer of asking on condition he put up photos and as such he shouldn't have arbitrarily decided he wasn't going to honour that and re-sell without telling me.

My feedback should have been allowed to stand is my point. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

**Steve** · 29-02-2012, 22:54

I understand your position and how you are viewing this, but (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertb

But I made a conditional offer and the seller accepted it....he accepted the conditions.

that's inaccurate, he didn't accept anything.
From reading the ad, there was no definite acceptance there, just a promise to add pics when he got around to it and then it would be back to you to confirm your interest / offer based on what you saw. In the meantime, another used posted an unconditional offer and sealed the deal.
To be honest, I'd have done what you did - asked for more info - and if someone went in blind then that's their risk to take and I'd have said fair enough: maybe it was a bargain, maybe it was a lemon but I wasn't prepared to take the risk on it.
As Nessyguin said, this is a close one to call if we take morals and honourable behaviour into account but technically there was no rule breach here.

robertb · 01-03-2012, 08:42

You're the mod so ultimately it's your interpretation that counts. Having said that I reserve the right to disagree.

All offers in reality are conditional. The person who subsequently bought the item I'm sure will reserve the right to walk away from the deal if the item isn't as described. Same applies on any auction site.

I offered the asking price and agreed to pay for postage subject to seeing the item. Saying that this didn't constitute an agreement I believe is wrong.

BengaLover · 01-03-2012, 11:11

An offer becomes conditional if you add terms to it ie, ill buy 'if'..You didnt make a valid offer really.

robertb · 01-03-2012, 11:40

You're welcome to your opinion obviously.

**Steve** · 01-03-2012, 19:43

It's not opinion, its site rules.

Your offer was perfectly valid, had the seller said 'offer accepted' then your offer could not be trumped, only equalled and put in line behind yours.
The same principle applies, for example, when an item has an asking price of €10 and the seller explicitly accepts your bid of €8 - nobody can subsequently offer more than that, they can only equal it and get in line.

In this case, your offer wasn't explicitly accepted, there was merely a commitment to provide more information - i.e. pics. Someone came along and was prepared to take a risk and buy it without seeing pics and so that is, and always has been, considered a better offer.

Yes, they may walk away after seeing the item but it's then cost them a trip to go and meet the seller and that's the risk they took - you could have done the same if you wanted but, again, it's a risk and is something we strongly advise against doing.

robertb · 01-03-2012, 20:21

I believe you're wrong. I believe my offer, such as it was, was accepted. Part of the transaction required them to verify the item by way of photographs and they agreed to produce them. As far as I'm concerned, having agreed to pay the asking price plus postage costs the deal was done. That was my understanding and based on the seller's reaction to my feedback, it was his understanding as well.

In the end, no mattter how emphatically you refer to the rules, it's still a judgement call. Eddie looked at the very same set of exchanges yesterday and saw it differently, so there are no absolutes here. In fact it was someone else on that original thread who brought the issue to this forum in first place, so I'm not the only one who thought that what happened was out of order.

Anyway, I'm bored with it at this stage. He can do whatever he wants with his watch I won't be trading with him again.

29-02-2012, 20:22	#1
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	Feedback for poor seller removed I left a poor seller feedback that has been removed. I'd like to know why. Here's the ad. http://www.adverts.ie/running-track-...er-305/1392826

29-02-2012, 21:25	#5
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	Sorry I don't agree at all. He agreed to post pictures. If he hadn't then fair enough but he did. The deal was set. It was me he was dealling with. If he decided that photos weren't available he should have said that me to instead of just throwing the item up for sale again. It sold one minute later. Eddie looked at this and said himself he felt the rules had been breached so I'm not happy about how this has been handled. I don't believe that my feedback should have been removed. The sellers response to the feedback was "just got a better deal somewhere else...sorry bro". Last edited by robertb; 29-02-2012 at 21:32.

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29-02-2012, 20:33	#2
BengaLover Registered User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: A little to the left of 'over there'. Posts: 2,017 Adverts \| Friends	You jumped in on the ad presuming that the person saying 'pm sent' was trying to deal off thread. On Adverts you get a time frame within which to communicate with a seller - sometimes if you go outside that time frame you cant send a pm even if you have done a transaction with the seller - you get a message saying 'you cannot pm the seller as you have not made an offer on any of his items' (or something to that effect) In that case, and I have done it myself, you have to go to one of their active ads and make a comment on it, and then you can pm them. Presumably the person commenting first was doing this, and your assumptions were wrong. You left feedback for someone you didnt do a transaction with which is against the rules, so maybe its you that isnt clear on Adverts rules here.

29-02-2012, 20:39	#3
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	That first comment isn't the issue. The issue is that I made a deal with the seller to buy the item after that and he then put it up for sale and sold it to someone else. I left the seller negative feedback which was later removed. In fact somene else on that thread reported the ad here and Eddie himself saw it as a rule breach. See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...5#post77336905 Yet the feedback I left was removed. I'd like whoever removed that feedback to explain why. Doesn't seem right.

29-02-2012, 21:16	#4
Lazarus2.0 formerly nessyguin Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,081 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Adverts.ie, adverts.ie Support	I'm not sure who removed the feedback but on reading the ad I can understand why it might have been removed . Throughout the thread your offer was conditional on photos being supplied - they weren't and there was ultimately no deal agreed between you . With no committment made feedback isn't appropriate . IMO It's a very close call in this situation . Your last comment would have set the deal in place had you not added " Anyway, the most important thing is the pics." . Unfortunately that left the agreement re postage as conditional and a seller is within their rights to accept an unconditional offer over yours . That's not to say that the ad was conducted entirely within the rules but admins are dealing with that on the other support thread . You : ... Offer asking - €60 Seller : are you making an offer? You : Yes I'll give you the asking price for it if it's in clean condition. You mentioned it was only used a few times so I pesume it's "as new"? Would you post some photos of what's being sold please...watch, leads, power cable etc Seller : @robertb:It's in my old house just moved. it's 'as new' no damage. but only comes with the usb.(also charges device) can you collect from rathmines or tallaght? You : Hi. I'd need to see decent photos of the item. I'm out in Meath so it would be a very long way for me to go to discover the item was less than spotless. I'd need to see it first. Seller : @robertb:I'll get them up shortly. you ok to pay for postage then? You : Yeah no problem with the postage. I presume it won't come to a lot? Anyway, the most important thing is the pics.

29-02-2012, 22:05	#7
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	Yes I understand you're interpretation of events. I just don't agree with them. I had an agreement with the seller. It should have been seen through. If another moderator looked at this and felt the same then my point is valid. If it isn't valid then what rule did Eddie feel the seller broke? Just because the feedback was removed doesn't necessarily mean it should have been.

29-02-2012, 22:26	#8
Steve Life is hard, deal with it. Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: On the rocky road Posts: 15,545 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Adverts.ie, adverts.ie Support, Airsoft, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy	Robert, it's always been the case here that when we see two offers: Bidder 1: "I offer asking IF <insert condition here>" Bidder 2: " I offer asking" Bidder 2's offer is considered better there unless the seller agrees to & fulfils the conditions in bidder 1's offer before bidder 2 offers. In this case you were rightly being cautious by asking for pictures, bidder 2 was not so cautious and offered blind - that may be to their detriment if the goods are not up to scratch but that's the risk they take in doing so. There's loads more fish in the sea so I wouldn't worry about it, I'm sure another one will be offered for sale before long.

29-02-2012, 22:38	#9
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	I'm not worried about it...if "it" refers to the watch. It's not about the watch it's about the principle of the thing. And it's not about making a conditional offer either. If I made a conditional offer and someone else improved it then fair enough. But I made a conditional offer and the seller accepted it....he accepted the conditions. That's the point. He accepted the offer of asking on condition he put up photos and as such he shouldn't have arbitrarily decided he wasn't going to honour that and re-sell without telling me. My feedback should have been allowed to stand is my point. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

01-03-2012, 08:42	#11
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	You're the mod so ultimately it's your interpretation that counts. Having said that I reserve the right to disagree. All offers in reality are conditional. The person who subsequently bought the item I'm sure will reserve the right to walk away from the deal if the item isn't as described. Same applies on any auction site. I offered the asking price and agreed to pay for postage subject to seeing the item. Saying that this didn't constitute an agreement I believe is wrong.

01-03-2012, 11:11	#12
BengaLover Registered User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: A little to the left of 'over there'. Posts: 2,017 Adverts \| Friends	An offer becomes conditional if you add terms to it ie, ill buy 'if'..You didnt make a valid offer really.

01-03-2012, 11:40	#13
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	You're welcome to your opinion obviously.

01-03-2012, 19:43	#14
Steve Life is hard, deal with it. Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: On the rocky road Posts: 15,545 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Adverts.ie, adverts.ie Support, Airsoft, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy	It's not opinion, its site rules. Your offer was perfectly valid, had the seller said 'offer accepted' then your offer could not be trumped, only equalled and put in line behind yours. The same principle applies, for example, when an item has an asking price of €10 and the seller explicitly accepts your bid of €8 - nobody can subsequently offer more than that, they can only equal it and get in line. In this case, your offer wasn't explicitly accepted, there was merely a commitment to provide more information - i.e. pics. Someone came along and was prepared to take a risk and buy it without seeing pics and so that is, and always has been, considered a better offer. Yes, they may walk away after seeing the item but it's then cost them a trip to go and meet the seller and that's the risk they took - you could have done the same if you wanted but, again, it's a risk and is something we strongly advise against doing.

01-03-2012, 20:21	#15
robertb Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 48 Adverts \| Friends	I believe you're wrong. I believe my offer, such as it was, was accepted. Part of the transaction required them to verify the item by way of photographs and they agreed to produce them. As far as I'm concerned, having agreed to pay the asking price plus postage costs the deal was done. That was my understanding and based on the seller's reaction to my feedback, it was his understanding as well. In the end, no mattter how emphatically you refer to the rules, it's still a judgement call. Eddie looked at the very same set of exchanges yesterday and saw it differently, so there are no absolutes here. In fact it was someone else on that original thread who brought the issue to this forum in first place, so I'm not the only one who thought that what happened was out of order. Anyway, I'm bored with it at this stage. He can do whatever he wants with his watch I won't be trading with him again.