[southsiderosie]

Originally Posted by 20Cent

The securitisation thing is a huge problem in the US at the moment. Banks are losing cases when trying to forclose because they haven't got the proper paperwork or even the deeds. They were in such a hurry to give absolutely anyone a mortgage's in order to sell it on as bonds the paper trail is a mess.

Originally Posted by jmayo

Ah looking for yet another way to welch on your debts and dump them on the taxpayers.
What would society do without you.

I have to agree with 20Cent here. The foreclosure issue isn't about dumping on taxpayers, it is about rule of law. Just as buyers were trying to make extra money by flipping houses, lenders were trying to make money by bundling and selling mortgages. Only the mortgage holder has the right to foreclose on a home - if you can't prove who actually holds the mortgage, then how can you kick someone out of their house?

[jmayo]

Originally Posted by 20Cent

Warnings were given re the housing bubble. Now some of the same people are warning about an upcoming mortgage crisis as well. Should we just ignore them again like last time? Worked out well then.

I know feeling smug and calling people stupid is fun for some but isn't it time to prepare and put something in place to head off this problem or should we wait until it becomes a crisis again?

There is a difference between warning about something and doing what you are doing.
What you are doing is akin to a banker telling everyone in 2007 that they should be given billions in a bailout less the world caves in.

We all know there probably is a load of mortgage defaults coming down the road.
Some are just surviving and if anything rocks the boat they will sink.

But what you are doing is demanding that those people be given a get out of jail card on their debts, i.e. debt forgiveness.

Just like I argued against bailouts for banks like Anglo/INBS and NAMA, I am arguing against a bailout of every mortgage defaulter.

Where would the madness end ?
Basically this country would be a state where you can borrow as much as you like, not pay it back and continue as if nothing had happened.
Try and see if any lender would give mortgages after that.
You could definetly say goodbye to any foreign bank offering any form of loans in this country.

Originally Posted by southsiderosie

I have to agree with 20Cent here. The foreclosure issue isn't about dumping on taxpayers, it is about rule of law. Just as buyers were trying to make extra money by flipping houses, lenders were trying to make money by bundling and selling mortgages. Only the mortgage holder has the right to foreclose on a home - if you can't prove who actually holds the mortgage, then how can you kick someone out of their house?

Yes we know the situation in the states and I have a feeling the somehting similar may apply to some of those developers who got wads of cash with little securitisation in return and the deals were poorly documented.

Now if someone was to come on here and say that developer X does not have to pay back x hundred million to NAMA, because the paperwork was screwed up there would be uproar.
And I can assure you that some of those getting angry would include the very ones that think it is ok if mortgage holder Y doesn't pay anything back because there was a screwup with the paperwork.

IMHO it appears 20cent is hoping that there might be similar screwups with the paperwork here and thus some get out of paying their debts.

I wonder does he think the same should be used by seanie fitz, sean dunne, seamus ross, sean quinn, etc ?

[20Cent]

Originally Posted by jmayo

There is a difference between warning about something and doing what you are doing.
What you are doing is akin to a banker telling everyone in 2007 that they should be given billions in a bailout less the world caves in.

We all know there probably is a load of mortgage defaults coming down the road.
Some are just surviving and if anything rocks the boat they will sink.

But what you are doing is demanding that those people be given a get out of jail card on their debts, i.e. debt forgiveness.

Just like I argued against bailouts for banks like Anglo/INBS and NAMA, I am arguing against a bailout of every mortgage defaulter.

Where would the madness end ?
Basically this country would be a state where you can borrow as much as you like, not pay it back and continue as if nothing had happened.
Try and see if any lender would give mortgages after that.
You could definetly say goodbye to any foreign bank offering any form of loans in this country.

We all know there is a large amount of mortgage defaults coming down the road. Just as we knew a housing bubble was coming. Ignoring a problem makes it worse. Some debt forgiveness is the only solution I can think of maybe you have a better one?
The rest is slippery slope arguments.

Originally Posted by jmayo

Yes we know the situation in the states and I have a feeling the somehting similar may apply to some of those developers who got wads of cash with little securitisation in return and the deals were poorly documented.

Now if someone was to come on here and say that developer X does not have to pay back x hundred million to NAMA, because the paperwork was screwed up there would be uproar.
And I can assure you that some of those getting angry would include the very ones that think it is ok if mortgage holder Y doesn't pay anything back because there was a screwup with the paperwork.

IMHO it appears 20cent is hoping that there might be similar screwups with the paperwork here and thus some get out of paying their debts.

I wonder does he think the same should be used by seanie fitz, sean dunne, seamus ross, sean quinn, etc ?

I certainly hope that is not the case. But since you mentioned it I have seen it reported that many of the loans NAMA took over don't have proper documentation.
Don't think your list of people are going to be stuck for somewhere to live or a few quid despite the amounts they owe do you?

[bedrock#1]

Originally Posted by The Waltzing Consumer

I don't get why you said the Government are making a mockery of You and Me, cause we had an election a year ago, it was all free, there have no major protests, opinion polls are strong for the Government and it all is fairly stable. So looking at it objectively, it seems the Government are acting exactly the same the majority of people want it to act.

I have never voted for any of the three major parties in this country so I would consider what they are doing to be a mockery of what I believe and stand for and so by extension me as a whole.

The general consensus from all I have read on the boards and other forums is that the majority of people in this country are not happy with what the government have done over the last year.

One subjective example of this is my position regarding furthering my education. The new rules regarding post-grad grants and fees mean that I will not get any help in doing a masters degree. The current figures show that the average time spent on the live register is 21 months. I no doubt will have to sign on in may when I finish my exams. Even if I by some miracle only last half of the average time on the dole the government will have spent nearly twice as much for me to p*ss about looking for jobs that aren't there rather than making me more employable which would cost around 5k.

Further to this the new rules they propose to bring in about expected signing off the live register are yet another grand scheme which will most likely result in disaster. How can they implement this sort of policy without adequate time to create the massive infrastructure needed to fulfil it? Where are these training opportunities going to come from? Where are the jobs going to come from ? 200,000 jobs by 2020? Are you serious? In the 1950s and the 1980s Irish governments relied on emigration to reduce the unemployed of this country. Back then it was mainly uneducated people leaving - today all the highly educated brains (that we as tax payers paid for) are leaving. We will end up mass-exporting our greatest asset, hell they are leaving right now!

Less access to education + mass emigration ≠ highly educated workforce

This is not going to get any better any time soon. Our government and the ESRI think our growth will be nearly 1% this year... The IMF say 0.5%. I'd be inclined to agree with the IMF. Either way we are screwed.

I haven't got time to continue this which has clearly deviated into rant territory - suffice it to conclude that this is not the type of country I want to live in nor is this the type of Europe I want to live in. I feel like I have been made a mockery of.

[jmayo]

Originally Posted by 20Cent

We all know there is a large amount of mortgage defaults coming down the road. Just as we knew a housing bubble was coming. Ignoring a problem makes it worse. Some debt forgiveness is the only solution I can think of maybe you have a better one?
The rest is slippery slope arguments.

And what do you think a debt forgiveness program would be.
How do you envisage a debt forgiveness solution working ?

Should it only apply ...

• to those who bought normal houses and not massive houses ?
• to those who did not roll any other debt into their mortgages ?
• to those who did not remortgage ?
• to those who only borrowed 4 or 5 times their salary at the time ?
• to those who did not take out 100% mortgages ?
• to those who only bought between 2002 and 2008 ?
• to you ?

For a start you cannot have a blanket system.
Secondly how do you force a non irish owned bank to write off chunks of mortgages ?
Those banks have to receive compensation and who pays that but the taxpayers once again.

You cannot have a system where someone is allowed walk away from their debt yet keep ownership of the property.
If you think otherwise you are deluded if you think others would agree to it.
Otherwise why should the rest of those who are paying their mortgages not refuse to pay and demand they get some debt forgiveness as well.

What about those who don't have a mortgage ?
What do they get for their contribution to the mortgage of the one who is receiving debt forgiveness ?

The only thing that will have to happen is if people can't repay mortgage is that they declare bankrupt are left with nothing and lose ownership of the house.
Yes this will have knock on affect on house prices whihc I know is one of your concerns, but tough sh**.
House prices are still overvalued and it is about time they reached the bottom of the crash.
And by overvalued I mean they are still hovering at a point during the beginning of the bubble (probably 2000-2001) and they have gone down to apoint before the bubble even started (mid to late 90s).

There is going to be huge fallout, but dreaming up ways that people keep their homes and somehow magically walk away from their debts will not run with the ones who will have to cover the cost of that little scheme.
There is only so far you can push the ones that keep this country going and asking them to support their neighbour who often lived the high life, but now wants a bailout I reckon will be a step too far.

[AlekSmart]

Originally Posted by Zombrex

True, I certainly know people who are kicking themselves now for being so naive but who would say that at the time they felt a pressure that they had to buy something, anything, in order to get on the rising tide.

This pressure to buy property is central to the entire question of how Ireland and it's prople ended up in this dreadful situation.

What makes it all the more disgusting,is that a great source of this presure came from actual Government Policy enacted by a legislature comprised of Gamblers,Publicans,Auctioneers,Lawyers and Speculators.

This cabal managed successfully to forge the folk-myth that owning a Place of your own was almost compulsory if one was to survive at all.

Whilst all of this policy formulation was going on,the same crew managed to consistently derail any attempts to advocate affordable,regulated Private Long-Term Rental as a sustainable means of housing citizens.

Sadly,even in todays supposedly clearer situation,our Government still clings to the fallacy that we can still get the Property Canoe upright again.....

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by 20Cent

Warnings were given re the housing bubble. Now some of the same people are warning about an upcoming mortgage crisis as well. Should we just ignore them again like last time? Worked out well then.

I know feeling smug and calling people stupid is fun for some but isn't it time to prepare and put something in place to head off this problem or should we wait until it becomes a crisis again?

Of course. We should also though be putting in place acceptance of responsibility in society so that hopefully the next time we have a bubble (which seems to be about ever 20 to 25 years) perhaps people act a little bit more responsibly than they did before.

Or to put it another way, this generation need to take responsibility for the mess they have gotten themselves into so when their children are faced with the same choices (albet probably on a smaller scale than this time around) they can be educated by their parents mistakes.

[walshb]

Originally Posted by jmayo

Anyone with a modicum of common sense knew that prices could not go increasing forever.:

Eh, I never said otherwise, and if you bothered to read what I wrote you would know this. I said I do not believe average folks could confidently predict two events happening together. Prices would STOP rising, as well as them then dramatically crashing. I know well the prices couldn't keep rising. They were great at saying this after it happened, but there were never clear signs that the prices would stop AND drop dramatically.

[MadsL]

Originally Posted by AlekSmart

This cabal managed successfully to forge the folk-myth that owning a Place of your own was almost compulsory if one was to survive at all.

Not to mention the group-think that it was unpatriotic somehow to question this folk-myth..talking the economy down I believe was the phrase at the time.

That and the media being 'negative'.

[MadsL]

Originally Posted by walshb

Eh, I never said otherwise, and if you bothered to read what I wrote you would know this. I said I do not believe average folks could confidently predict two events happening together. Prices would STOP rising, as well as them then dramatically crashing. I know well the prices couldn't keep rising. They were great at saying this after it happened, but there were never clear signs that the prices would stop AND drop dramatically.

When?

In 2006 I gave two people I knew who were just about to buy apartments clippings from the Economist predicting a 50% drop for Ireland and drawing comparisons with other property crashes.

I got laughed at. They bought anyway. I think one is now 60% underwater.

[20Cent]

Originally Posted by Zombrex

Of course. We should also though be putting in place acceptance of responsibility in society so that hopefully the next time we have a bubble (which seems to be about ever 20 to 25 years) perhaps people act a little bit more responsibly than they did before.

Or to put it another way, this generation need to take responsibility for the mess they have gotten themselves into so when their children are faced with the same choices (albet probably on a smaller scale than this time around) they can be educated by their parents mistakes.

The banks, nope they were bailed out.
Bondholders nope they got paid back,
Developers, nope they get a wage pus will be buying back their property for a song soon.
The bloke who wanted a home for his family yep, hammered for all they have moral hazard only applies to them. And soon we will be bailing out the banks again when this goes tits up.
To properly learn from this incident we need some justice re-Anglo, the banks, developers etc or its bound to happen again. Not to mention a lot of people losing their homes ending up in Gov accumulation which will probably end up costing us more than helping them out now. Cheapest bank bailout ever etc............

[jmayo]

Originally Posted by walshb

Eh, I never said otherwise, and if you bothered to read what I wrote you would know this. I said I do not believe average folks could confidently predict two events happening together. Prices would STOP rising, as well as them then dramatically crashing. I know well the prices couldn't keep rising. They were great at saying this after it happened, but there were never clear signs that the prices would stop AND drop dramatically.

Ah FFS remember the stuff I said about looking at history.
For a start all someone had to do was talk to someone who had lived in the UK during the 80s who saw the prices drop drastically, checked out the Japanese collapse of the early 90s or the Scandanavian bubble of the 90s.

Disregarding all these bubbles/bursts and somehow believing the bullsh** being pedalled by vested interests about how we were somehow different to everyone else and how we would have some mythical soft landing was really dumb.

What type of sign did you want ?
An appartition at Knock or something ?

Originally Posted by 20Cent

The banks, nope they were bailed out.
Bondholders nope they got paid back,
Developers, nope they get a wage pus will be buying back their property for a song soon.
The bloke who wanted a home for his family yep, hammered for all they have moral hazard only applies to them. And soon we will be bailing out the banks again when this goes tits up.
To properly learn from this incident we need some justice re-Anglo, the banks, developers etc or its bound to happen again. Not to mention a lot of people losing their homes ending up in Gov accumulation which will probably end up costing us more than helping them out now. Cheapest bank bailout ever etc............

Yes I agree that we really need to see justice.
We need some high ranking bankers, entrepreneurs/developers and regulators seeing their assets being stripped away, pensions removed and answering questions in a court of law.
BTW I don't think the number of developers getting salaries from NAMa is anything like it is made out.
What is more concerning is indeed the fact that they have salted away their wealth to family and friends to allow them fight another day.
Every penny they have ceeded post 2005 should be confiscated.

But all of the above still doesn't also mean I want to see someone who bought a 4,000 sq ft house, rolled his credit card debt and car loans into his mortgage getting a bailout which allows him stay in his home and walk away
from his debts.
There should never have been any bailouts except for the two big truly systemic banks.

Your idea of justice seems to be that rather than stopping fraud/theft, everyone should be allowed do it.

[southsiderosie]

MOD NOTE:

A few of the posts on the last two pages have gotten overly personal and nasty. Please tone it down - it is possible to disagree while remaining civil.

[Godge]

Originally Posted by bedrock#1

The general consensus from all I have read on the boards and other forums is that the majority of people in this country are not happy with what the government have done over the last year.

Where is your evidence for this?

http://irishpollingreport.wordpress.com/

Read the last poll referenced on this blog. According to this, the EU Treaty Reforms would be passed by 53% to 47% if put to a referendum. Combined support for FG and Labour remained at 44%. Adding in FF at 18% - they have said they support the general thrust of the government's decisions - gives you a total of 62% support plus whatever independents are FG or FF in disguise. So you could easily make an argument that somewhere between 53% and 65% support the course of action that the government is taking.

Where is your evidence to the contrary?

[FreudianSlippers]

Originally Posted by antoobrien

Excuse the ignorance of the question but what does it mean that a garda is "on his/her oath"?

It's Freeman misuse/misunderstanding of the word "law" and a large distinction they draw between "common law", "admiralty law" and "statute law" (ridiculously inaccurate distinctions as well mind you).

There is some line they are drawing in the video to the "oath", really called a solemn declaration from section 16 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005:

(1) On being appointed, each member of the Garda Síochána shall make before a Peace Commissioner a declaration in the following form:

“I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that—

• I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,

• while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and

• I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”.

(2) The words “before God” may be omitted from the declaration at the request of the declarant.

Shouting "common law" over and over makes about as much legal sense as shouting "banana bread" repeatedly... sure, it means something... but not in this context.