[28064212]

Originally Posted by Stella Marr

All the survivors I know, myself included, speak out because of our deep concern for the women in prostitution. I believe if people really understood what it was, there would be deep social change. These legalize/don't legalize arguments distract from the suffering of the women in prostitution -- and we become invisible beneath such arguments.

The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.

[Eileen_Lang]

Originally Posted by Millicent

That's interesting. Do you think maybe that's as a result of coming to dislike prostitution and the punters' view of you?

Actually, far from it...almost the opposite if anything (I disliked even the *IDEA* of prostitution, sometimes at close range, for about 10 years before I ever had to do it...there reallly was nowhere to go with "further dislike"). I was the classic young woman who seeks affirmation of low self esteem in sh*gging anyone who asks...and wakes up next day feeling utterly degraded and humiliated by that...

In very, clear, practical terms I started to realise, whenever a guy would try to pick me up socially that I could get myself made use of to fill exactly the same sexual need by someone nicer and far more respectful AND get paid for it...

...and my next thought was to realise I deserved better that letting myself be used like that for free.

Originally Posted by Millicent

How so?

Not being coy, but I think I went into that *WAY* too much earlier in the thread and it's probably best not revisited, except to say that of course I do not believe you have to be hypersensitive or unstable to be damaged by prostitution...but that those who chose to sell sex and found they were damaged by it probably take responsibility for that choice, rather than projecting it onto others, as a vital part of their recovery.

[Millicent]

Originally Posted by Eileen_Lang

Do women still do that? I wouldn't have thought so myself...not for a couple of decades.

Absolutely. I still know girls who view themselves in term of looks, beauty and attractiveness to the opposite sex. It's still there, sadly, even in young girls.

[Eileen_Lang]

Originally Posted by 28064212

The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.

Can I thank this post twice?

[Eileen_Lang]

Originally Posted by Millicent

Absolutely. I still know girls who view themselves in term of looks, beauty and attractiveness to the opposite sex. It's still there, sadly, even in young girls.

That genuinely surprises me...I really thought young women dressed and blinged up to be pleasing in their own eyes these days...

Perhaps I just got old and out of touch?

[Stella Marr]

Originally Posted by 28064212

The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.

Organized crime is deeply involved in prostitution in places where there's legal pimping, such as Amsterdam and Germany, who have some of the highest trafficking rates in the world. In New York City where I was prostituted it was technically illegal, but punters/Johns were rarely arrested, and escort services operated with nearly complete impunity. My pimps worked with corrupt police officers, who were also involved in threatening my life and making me feel I couldn't report the violence and coercion to the police. They told me that if I went to the cops, the cops would just bring me back to my pimps.


Regarding prohibition -- prohibition refers to consumable substances like drugs and alcohol. I am not a consumable substance. I am a human being. What's more, no one is prohibiting sex. So the argument makes no sense.

Using the idea of prohibition in connection with prostitution dehumanizes the women involved.

[28064212]

Originally Posted by Stella Marr

Organized crime is deeply involved in prostitution in places where there's legal pimping, such as Amsterdam and Germany, who have some of the highest trafficking rates in the world. In New York City where I was prostituted it was technically illegal, but punters/Johns were rarely arrested, and escort services operated with nearly complete impunity. My pimps worked with corrupt police officers, who were also involved in threatening my life and making me feel I couldn't report the violence and coercion to the police. They told me that if I went to the cops, the cops would just bring me back to my pimps.

Why do you use a place where it's illegal as an example when that's exactly my point? Organised criminals get involved when there is a demand that lawful enterprises cannot supply.

Originally Posted by Stella Marr

Regarding prohibition -- prohibition refers to consumable substances like drugs and alcohol. I am not a consumable substance. I am a human being. What's more, no one is prohibiting sex. So the argument makes no sense.

Using the idea of prohibition in connection with prostitution dehumanizes the women involved.

Only if you choose to read it that way. Prohibited means forbidden by law, whether that's a product, a service or an act

[Ickle Magoo]

credible site-banned as re-reg of poster previously site-banned for spouting much the same...

Have deleted their posts and those referring to them as to give them air-time just encourages them to keep re-regging.

[Ickle Magoo]

Just to re-iterate - this is a discussion forum aimed at the female postership of Boards.

Any interesting addition to the discussion is welcome but could posters avoid using the forum just as a platform to soap-box issues and avoid cutting and pasting swathes from articles/blogs in lieu of interactive discussion with the community.

Cheers.

[neuro-praxis]

Originally Posted by laneyc86

I am aware that Ruhama and some Government agencies provide educational training and financial assistance for those who wish to leave prostitution. My question is do women get to choose the supports which they feel *they* would benefit from the most? Or are they told to "shut up and be grateful for what you get?"

Well? Which is it?

a woman can go from being pimped in a physical and sexual sense, to being pimped by those who are attracted to the fact that they can have control, power and influence over the lives of other people who will always be more disadvantaged, isolated and vulnerable.

Who is doing this? Be specific. And what can we do about it?

Many disability organisations are far more political than most people would like to believe, or wish to get themselves involved in. The same goes for organisations like Ruhama and others involved in "Turn off the Red Light". Amidst all the backslapping, "raising awareness", fancy lunches and high salaries some people's lives are still being devastated by those who claim to "support" them. And I believe that is wrong.

Yeah, I believe it's wrong too. Who is doing this and how are lives being devastated by these organisations? Genuine question - I have no affiliations.

Disadvantaged people are often rendered invisible by society and repeatedly ignored, silenced and even intimidated by those who claim to work for their best interests.

Please give us some examples and if you have them, ways to combat this culture.

To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality.
The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.

Agreed. How would we do this?

[Eileen_Lang]

Originally Posted by laneyc86

Awareness of any issue should ALWAYS be about PEOPLE – it should NEVER exclude or exploit those who are isolated, marginalised or vulnerable.
REAL awareness should aim to treat those same isolated, marginalised and vulnerable people with the same dignity and respect as any other human being.
Disadvantaged people are often rendered invisible by society and repeatedly ignored, silenced and even intimidated by those who claim to work for their best interests. To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality.
The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.

Snipped to the core conclusion but that is remarkable insight...the parallels truly never end.

When you think about it there is little or no difference between perceived disability and perceived disadvantage in the political arena...both are regarded as fair game as far as I can see.

...and I would say that just as many autistic ladies as prostitutes were sent "do penance" in the laundries and just as many prostitutes as autistics were incarcerated in places like St Ita's for the duration of whatever...

[Eileen_Lang]

Originally Posted by neuro-praxis

Agreed. How would we do this?

That looks self explanatory to me.

[Stella Marr]

Originally Posted by neuro-praxis

Well? Which is it?



Who is doing this? Be specific. And what can we do about it?



Yeah, I believe it's wrong too. Who is doing this and how are lives being devastated by these organisations? Genuine question - I have no affiliations.



Please give us some examples and if you have them, ways to combat this culture.



Agreed. How would we do this?

I think neuropraxis's questions above are very important. Regarding prostitution, I don't think lives are being devastated by organizations like Ruhama.

The devastation is being done by pimps and Johns. But there should be more prostittution survivors in leadership roles in any organization that has a mission to help women in prostitution. Right now on both sides of the Atlantic there seems to be a disconnect -- survivor activists are fighting a lonely battle outside of most of the institutions that are soliciting public donations to help women in prostitution. This doesn't make any sense, and can sometimes result in a secondary kind of exploitation (I can't speak for Ireland -- I'm talking about the USA).

I've been very inspired by the disabled rights movement, especially by the poet Laura Hershey, as has Dublin Call Girl.

[Stella Marr]

Originally Posted by laneyc86

However, a lot of these adults have degrees and independent lives (which is totally unrepresentative of the majority) and all are used in purely tokenistic positions - they do not have a role in management or direction of the organisation. Quite simply, one is *expected* to be a "Self-narrating Zoo Exhibit" and only speak about aspects of their own personal lives, and not about the wider disability rights perspective.

I can see similarities in Dublin Call Girl's writings. For example, someone who has not been driven into prostitution as a result of poverty, coercion, trafficking or drug addiction seems to think in terms of "those people":

http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl....-prostitution/


.

I found much of what Laney expressed about disabled rights to be true. But I think it's unfair to say that Dublin Call Girl thinks in terms of "those people." That's pretty slanderous, and it's surprising to see such a nasty klinker in a discussion of disabled rights.

Dublin Call Girl is not thinking in terms of 'those people' when she states that things are 50 times worse for people less privileged than she is. She's acknowledging her privilege and acknowledging the truth -- things are much worse for a lot of women in prostitution than they were for her. That's why she was able to get out of the life and be the brilliant writer she is today.

Although there are some parallels between how people with autism and prostitution survivors are treated by helping organizations, having autism and being a survivor of prostitution are very different. Why? Because prostitution itself is causing devastating damage on the women within it. Lasting damage. Without the horrific effects of prostittuion, there'd be no need for organizations to help women within it. These damaging effects can't be remediated via government regulation of a system that creates and dehumanizes the prostituted class.

In other words the punters/Johns and the pimps, male and female, are the perpetrators.

In contrast, in the past organizations that are supposed to help the disabled can act as perpetrators -- by misappropriating funds that are supposed to go to the disabled, by institutionalizing people unfairly, and by not using their funds to educate the public and contribute to social change. Predictably, the social change regarding public perception of asperger's and autism has come from autistic people or aspies speaking out despite the great risk. There's still a long way to go, but Temple Grandin, Michael John Carley and many others have made an impact.

Prostitution has the added complication of possible physical harm coming to the women if they speak out, via angry pimps and traffickers, or deranged punters. So organizations that help women in prostitution must be careful not to exploit the women via media exposure or use them for fund raising. Rather, these organizaitons should be elevating survivors to leadership roles.

[Stella Marr]

I do think the disabled rights movement has to struggle with false public perceptions of the disabled -- which compounds the problems disabled people experience. Some people love to blame the victim. It doesn't make sense to blame someone for a disability but people will do it anyway, rather than seeing the disabled as people like themselves.

Women in and survivors of prostitution struggle with victim-blaming too.

There's a certain hatred many types express toward anyone they perceive as "weak," a word they define as meaning easy to attack and not like them. These types are usually bullies -- and they scare off potential supporters of disabled rights or human rights fo the prostituted because these potential supporters are afraid they'll be attacked too. This enforces the social marginalization of both the disabled and survivors of and women in prostitution..

Actually survivors of prostitution and the disabled are usually quite emotionally strong. Because they have to be. It's those that marginalize them who are weak.