[Adam Khor]

Wibbs, where are thou?!

They say these paintings found in a Spanish cave and depicting seals were made by Neanderthals over 40.000 years ago. What I find weird is that the paintings are in a stalactite... would it be possible for the paintings to be there after such a long time? I mean, aren´t stalactites constantly growing, falling, being replaced, etc?
I know jack about geology so I don´t know...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...nish-cave.html

[Galvasean]

I know what you mean about the stalactite. That seems odd to me that one could remain so static after all this time.

[Rubecula]

Stalactites are produced when mineral rich water drips off leaving a microscopic amount of calcium behind.

It takes a very long time for something like this to be produced, so it is entirely possible that the slow rate of growth here has not had time to take effect. Or very possibly, the stalactite my have dried up due to a variety of factors.

I would presume it may have been wet when the paintings were done simply because such paintings are thought to be to aid in a successful hunt, and seals being water creatures might in the minds of the painter be more attracted to a painting done in moisture???

Anyway I am surmising.

By the way, how do they know it was Neanderthal work?

[dlofnep]

According to Wiki, average growth rate is 0.13 mm a year for them. That's just over 5 metres over a 40,000 year period.

[rich.d.berry]

Originally Posted by Rubecula

By the way, how do they know it was Neanderthal work?

Neanderthals are in the frame for the paintings since they are thought to have remained in the south and west of the Iberian peninsula until approximately 37,000 years ago – 5000 years after they had been replaced or assimilated by modern humans elsewhere in their European heartland.

Above quote from this New Scientist article

[Wibbs]

*faints* If this does turn out to be Neandertal in origin, yet another major difference between us goes for a fall.

There was the Neandertal "house" found a few months ago where they described painted tusks of which we've heard nothing more about sadly.

Then there is the discovery in Italy IIRC where they've found large deposits of bird bones and feathers. Birds that were hunted it seems not for their meat, but for their flight feathers. They seemed to have a liking for shiny black and pure white feathers and were very specific about those species with said colours and ignored ones that didn't, so it sounds like decoration or some other cultural reason.

Then the Spanish pigments and pendants long before we show up on the scene.

I suspect more of this stuff will show up. I further suspect they used more fugitive materials that simply haven't survived. Wood, leather etc. When you look at a Neandertal tool assemblage there's an awful lot of scrapers and the like. Woodworking type stuff. Sapiens stuff has survived better because we used more stone, bone and painted in stable environments like caves and we did it more recently. On very very rare occasions we may catch a glimpse of what has been lost. EG the 400,000 year old beautifully fashioned and weighted wooden spears from Germany.

[Wibbs]

I'd add a caveat though. They look very fresh, particularly as has been well pointed out above on structures that are dynamic in nature. Well dynamic over 40 odd 1000 years anyway. Plus water flows over the surface of such structures. I'd believe them more is they were on a dry wall of a cave, unless they can prove that that part of the cave system has been dry for that period of time. Plus how did they miss them before now? I've been in those caves as a kid, they were a big organised tour type of thing.

[clintondaly]

They probably done it with a permanent marker....

[Adam Khor]

Originally Posted by clintondaly

They probably done it with a permanent marker....

Oh noes! :O Neanderthals invented permanent markers before we did!

[Wibbs]

Well they did invent sophisticated glue making techniques before us so you never know.

[Capt'n Midnight]

looks like ochre
had they used carbon then it would be easier to date

we've had a lot of climate changes in europe over the last 40,000 years so could very easily have dried up or at least diverted course

[Adam Khor]

If its legit, then its very interesting that it depicts seals- you know as there was talk some time ago about how Neanderthals seemingly hunted seals. Maybe they were as obsessed about them as Homo sapiens was with bison and horse XD

[Rubecula]

Interesting to note that seals make up a large part of the diet of northern people too even to this day. Seals may be one of the few foods available really now for these folks, so it may have been the same back then. And I assume that because of the blubber and richness of the meat, there is a lot of 'goodness' in a seal meal. (Sorry that that sounds a bit silly, but I am not sure how else to phrase it.)

[Galvasean]

Good point Rubecula, the blubber contained in seals would be just the food ticket needed for neandertals to make it through the cold of a harsh winter. For the most part when sharks and killer whales attack seals and whales in winter months they tend to focus on eating the blubber almost exclusively for this very reason.

[rich.d.berry]

And seal liver is a good source of vitamin C, only 10% less than in muktuk (freeze dried whale epidermis).