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nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012, 19:47

This may not be a topic for this forum specifically, but the two examples off the top of my head are in films/tv films so here goes. Basically in tv-film adaptation of Jason and the Argonauts there was this female who was an archer and far more interesting as a character than the conventional princess who had the personality of cardboard and who Jason? was made pre-destined to fall in love with even though the chemistry was more evident with the female archer. Now last time I saw this was in 2001 so I may be remembering things incorrectly but that was the overall impression I got.

Secondly Eoweyn? shield maiden of Rohan. I remember reading the LOTR books and thinking she was a really cool character but for frame of reference I'll just focus on the Two Towers which is a faithful enough adaptation. She was x1000000000 better as a character than the elven bird (Arwyn?) that Aragorn is again almost pre-destined by the logic of the plot to marry. Yet Eowyn gets brushed aside.

Even in Tron, Tron is the dull guy, Jeff Bridges should have got the girl in the computer world.

I notice this time and time again in films/tv where the unconventional secondary love interest is unsuccessful in their aims and the conventional/boring counterpart gets the girl/dude/whatever. What is the reason for this.

Precious1 · 01-02-2012, 20:40

I don't know about those movies, but I did notice that in the film "The Artist" The male protagonist has a dour wife, but he is complicit in this and is particularly cruel to her in one scene when he could have given comfort. However, in the end, he and the blithe female protagonist do get together.

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012, 20:51

Interesting, I definately think there a lot of unspoken values in films, things which aren't said because the writers aren't aware of them but just take them as givens. For example Gollum in LOTR gets his ass kicked around a lot even when he's trying to be good, what is all that about? Is it something ubersmench type of philosophy at work, that the weak deserve to be beaten up for being weak? I know that he's murdered some other hobbit in the past because of his addiction and that this is a bad thing but Gollum's existence is one of misery and endless punishment, how is he meant to redeem himself in the face of constant perpetual antagonism rather than going to other way and plotting to kill Frodo and Sam. Or Top Gun being a gay romance story, especially when you look at the beach volleyball scene. Anyway to relate this back to the thread at hand, what are the unspoken values whereby an interesting romance interest is displaced in favour of the conventional prince or princess?

**Sad Professor** · 01-02-2012, 20:59

I think the secondary love interest tends be more appealing/interesting for the very reason that they are secondary. Their relationship with the protagonist is not meant to be, which frees up the writer to create a very different, perhaps darker, more haunted character than the main love interest. In most cases the secondary love interest is, one way or the other, doomed.

So in the case of LOTR, Eowyn is more interesting than Arwen because Tolkien knew she wasn't going to end up Aragorn and wrote her differently (better?) as a result. I also suspect he originally planned to kill her off at the end but chickened out.

BunShopVoyeur · 01-02-2012, 21:04

That young guy isn't Tron.

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BunShopVoyeur

That young guy isn't Tron.

Tron 1982, "He fights for the users!"

BunShopVoyeur · 01-02-2012, 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyarlothothep

Tron 1982, "I fight for the users!"

I apologise profusely.

nermal15 · 01-02-2012, 21:24

Pretty in Pink, obvious example. Duckie was way more interesting than Blaine.

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sad Professor

I think the secondary love interest tends be more appealing/interesting for the very reason that they are secondary. Their relationship with the protagonist is not meant to be, which frees up the writer to create a very different, perhaps darker, more haunted character than the main love interest. In most cases the secondary love interest is, one way or the other, doomed.

So in the case of LOTR, Eowyn is more interesting than Arwen because Tolkien knew she wasn't going to end up Aragorn and wrote her differently (better?) as a result. I also suspect he originally planned to kill her off at the end but chickened out.

I don't think its necessary to doom them, for example Eowyn is interesting to begin with. I guess Aragorn ending up with Arwen makes Eowyn even more interesting because you kinda scratch you head thinking how can that be?! They could just make the primary interest interesting. For example in Arwen's case she fulfills all the standard conventions of feminity, she's demure, beautiful whatever but because she's basically the perfect wife, she's boring and one dimensional.

nyarlothothep · 01-02-2012, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by BunShopVoyeur

I apologise profusely.

No need, see below

Underdraft · 01-02-2012, 21:46

Lord of the Rings. Sam hooks up with Rosie Cotton (when it's clear that he and Frodo were meant to be together).

**Mellor** · 02-02-2012, 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyarlothothep

For example Gollum in LOTR gets his ass kicked around a lot even when he's trying to be good, what is all that about? Is it something ubersmench type of philosophy at work, that the weak deserve to be beaten up for being weak? I know that he's murdered some other hobbit in the past because of his addiction and that this is a bad thing but Gollum's existence is one of misery and endless punishment, how is he meant to redeem himself in the face of constant perpetual antagonism rather than going to other way and plotting to kill Frodo and Sam.

The was a pretty evil character. He killed his fried in cold blood long before he became Gollum, or was "addicted". He tried to kill Bilbo also.
He tried to help Frodo at one point. But a large part of this was because if Frodo failed, he lost the ring. Most of the time he is waiting to get it back, or even leading them to trouble.

Gollum was lost, he couldn't be redeemed.

Tipsy McSwagger · 02-02-2012, 08:52

Arwen gave up immortality for Aragorn so I think she wins.

Duggy747 · 02-02-2012, 09:59

Starship Troopers.

Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard.

Would you like to know more?

Underdraft · 02-02-2012, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggy747

Starship Troopers.

Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard.

Would you like to know more?

Spoiler: He did end up with her (albeit she is killed before the end but I reckon he would have stayed with her had she survived). Did you watch all of the movie?

01-02-2012, 19:47	#1
nyarlothothep Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: multi dimensional space Posts: 4,265 Adverts \| Friends	Interesting love interests which are ditched in favour of conventional ones This may not be a topic for this forum specifically, but the two examples off the top of my head are in films/tv films so here goes. Basically in tv-film adaptation of Jason and the Argonauts there was this female who was an archer and far more interesting as a character than the conventional princess who had the personality of cardboard and who Jason? was made pre-destined to fall in love with even though the chemistry was more evident with the female archer. Now last time I saw this was in 2001 so I may be remembering things incorrectly but that was the overall impression I got. Secondly Eoweyn? shield maiden of Rohan. I remember reading the LOTR books and thinking she was a really cool character but for frame of reference I'll just focus on the Two Towers which is a faithful enough adaptation. She was x1000000000 better as a character than the elven bird (Arwyn?) that Aragorn is again almost pre-destined by the logic of the plot to marry. Yet Eowyn gets brushed aside. Even in Tron, Tron is the dull guy, Jeff Bridges should have got the girl in the computer world. I notice this time and time again in films/tv where the unconventional secondary love interest is unsuccessful in their aims and the conventional/boring counterpart gets the girl/dude/whatever. What is the reason for this.

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01-02-2012, 20:40	#2
Precious1 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 42 Adverts \| Friends	I don't know about those movies, but I did notice that in the film "The Artist" The male protagonist has a dour wife, but he is complicit in this and is particularly cruel to her in one scene when he could have given comfort. However, in the end, he and the blithe female protagonist do get together.

01-02-2012, 20:51	#3
nyarlothothep Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: multi dimensional space Posts: 4,265 Adverts \| Friends	Interesting, I definately think there a lot of unspoken values in films, things which aren't said because the writers aren't aware of them but just take them as givens. For example Gollum in LOTR gets his ass kicked around a lot even when he's trying to be good, what is all that about? Is it something ubersmench type of philosophy at work, that the weak deserve to be beaten up for being weak? I know that he's murdered some other hobbit in the past because of his addiction and that this is a bad thing but Gollum's existence is one of misery and endless punishment, how is he meant to redeem himself in the face of constant perpetual antagonism rather than going to other way and plotting to kill Frodo and Sam. Or Top Gun being a gay romance story, especially when you look at the beach volleyball scene. Anyway to relate this back to the thread at hand, what are the unspoken values whereby an interesting romance interest is displaced in favour of the conventional prince or princess?

01-02-2012, 20:59	#4
Sad Professor Information Retrieval Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dublin Posts: 14,380 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Mac, Star Trek, Films	I think the secondary love interest tends be more appealing/interesting for the very reason that they are secondary. Their relationship with the protagonist is not meant to be, which frees up the writer to create a very different, perhaps darker, more haunted character than the main love interest. In most cases the secondary love interest is, one way or the other, doomed. So in the case of LOTR, Eowyn is more interesting than Arwen because Tolkien knew she wasn't going to end up Aragorn and wrote her differently (better?) as a result. I also suspect he originally planned to kill her off at the end but chickened out.

01-02-2012, 21:04	#5
BunShopVoyeur Closed Account Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 899 Adverts \| Friends	That young guy isn't Tron.

01-02-2012, 21:24	#8
nermal15 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 114 Adverts \| Friends	Pretty in Pink, obvious example. Duckie was way more interesting than Blaine.

01-02-2012, 21:46	#11
Underdraft Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 320 Adverts \| Friends	Lord of the Rings. Sam hooks up with Rosie Cotton (when it's clear that he and Frodo were meant to be together).

02-02-2012, 08:52	#13
Tipsy McSwagger Registered User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Gilead Posts: 2,638 Adverts \| Friends	Arwen gave up immortality for Aragorn so I think she wins.

02-02-2012, 09:59	#14
Duggy747 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: 8==D~~~ Posts: 9,812 Adverts \| Friends	Starship Troopers. Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard. Would you like to know more?