[Nervous Wreck]

Originally Posted by yawha

Wtf is "inherent manliness"?

I fully support your post except for this.

Personally, I think that the idea of this concept of "manliness" or is damaging (even if it's just meant in jest, as it's extremely overdone, and I believe it just serves to perpetuate it). It needs to be let go of and we need to realise that we are all individuals, and all express ourselves in our own ways. There shouldn't be any sort of idea of a role we should be playing, and we should not have to face criticism or be looked down upon if we feel we want to express ourselves differently, perhaps more in line with what society considers "feminine".

Also, I'd hate to be one of those fake men.

I agree. What I meant by "inherent manliness" was simply that we are inherently men by virtue of our sex. The context, I suppose, of the above was taking a man and "feminising" him to appeal to a particular fashion trend at the moment (sparkly vampires etc ). I've no problem with effeminate men but I wouldn't want them to feel they have to 'man up' any more than I would want 'manly men' to feel like they should conform to said fad. Was kind of just a throwaway comment tbh.

[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by irishh_bob

the majority of women perfer a real traditional man , unfortunatley its the noisy and agressive minority of man hating feminists who men hear and thus men misinterprete what women want

Actually the majority of women perfer a real traditional man, where it comes to the good stuff (i.e. chivalrous) but not where it comes to the bad stuff (i.e. chauvinistic), which unfortunately is a bit confusing for men, because the two are sides of the same coin.

Men are slowly also adopting the same cake and eat it mentality too, for example, how many couples do you see that are 50-50 on paying for everything, but somehow the woman ends up doing most of the housework?

This is because the last century redefined gender roles in a rather lopsided and chaotic manner and frankly the whole model has ended up a bit foobar, as a result. So until we can agree upon a new and equitable model to truly replace the old one (or return to it), I suspect we're going to cherry pick which mix or role we want to adopt as much as we can get away with.

So, what does it mean to be a 'Man' in modern society? Whatever you fancy and your girlfriend and/or wife will put up with.

[yawha]

Originally Posted by irishh_bob

traditional definitions of maleness are attacked and demonised by our increasingly feminine society and our obvious feminine media

Examples?

Personally, I've never actually seen or experienced anything like this, although I have read a fair amount of bizarre posts online about feminist conspiracies to keep men down, which I don't get at all...

Also, in my experience, the "majority of women" don't like any one type of man. They are all individuals and all have a diverse set of preferences in terms of attraction. I have never, ever felt that I need to act any one way to be attractive to women.

[py2006]

Although there are exceptions to the rule, I believe deep down straight women are attracted to 'men' and straight men are attracted to 'women'.

In a modern society people often say what they think is the right thing to say but will often think a lot differently.

I don't believe a lot of women are attracted to what can be described as a "feminine" man and men in general wouldn't be attracted to a "masculine" woman. Again there are exceptions but I think deep down that really isn't far off the mark.

[Peetrik]

The ideals of being a 'Man' in present society are the same as they have always been. We have been civilised for far too short a time for anything to have seriously changed. In short...

The ability and will to defend and provide for your family/loved ones

[yawha]

Originally Posted by py2006

Although there are exceptions to the rule, I believe deep down straight women are attracted to 'men' and straight men are attracted to 'women'.

In a modern society people often say what they think is the right thing to say but will often think a lot differently.

I don't believe a lot of women are attracted to what can be described as a "feminine" man and men in general wouldn't be attracted to a "masculine" woman. Again there are exceptions but I think deep down that really isn't far off the mark.

What do you mean by "feminine" and "masculine" here?

[irishh_bob]

Originally Posted by py2006

Although there are exceptions to the rule, I believe deep down straight women are attracted to 'men' and straight men are attracted to 'women'.

In a modern society people often say what they think is the right thing to say but will often think a lot differently.

I don't believe a lot of women are attracted to what can be described as a "feminine" man and men in general wouldn't be attracted to a "masculine" woman. Again there are exceptions but I think deep down that really isn't far off the mark.

a self appointed liberal elite have taken it upon themselves to speak for all women and have decided what they want and need , theese idealogues despise tradition and so view masculinity in the traditional sense as an evil which must be wiped out

[irishh_bob]

Originally Posted by yawha

What do you mean by "feminine" and "masculine" here?

use your head , you know what the poster means

[yawha]

Originally Posted by irishh_bob

use your head , you know what the poster means

I don't really. People throw around the words "masculine" and "feminine" as if there's an obvious, implicit understanding of what's meant by the terms, but there's actually not, it's really, really grey, and different generations and people of different backgrounds have different interpretations of what is "masculine" and what is "feminine" besides biology.

Also, I feel that statements which speak for the preferences of "most" women or men are pure projection.

[yawha]

Originally Posted by irishh_bob

a self appointed liberal elite have taken it upon themselves to speak for all women and have decided what they want and need , theese idealogues despise tradition and so view masculinity in the traditional sense as an evil which must be wiped out

[Otis Driftwood]

irishh_bob,you have been warned before about your posting style in here a couple of times so if you are going to make ludicrous statements you have made above you better have a helluva lot more to back it up other than your own opinion.

Opinion does not = fact.

Final warning.

yahaw,if you have an issue with a post then please use the report post function,cheers.

[pragmatic1]

Looking after yourself and your family. Standing up for your beliefs.

[Dudess]

Originally Posted by irishh_bob

the majority of women perfer a real traditional man , unfortunatley its the noisy and agressive minority of man hating feminists who men hear and thus men misinterprete what women want

Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour? Could you and The Corinthian also enlighten as to how you know what "most" women want?

Better to distinguish between the real world and notions you personally hold.

I don't see how chivalry and being a bastard are two sides of the same coin.

[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by Dudess

Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour? Could you and The Corinthian also enlighten as to how you know what "most" women want?

Hold on, I wasn't agreeing with him. I was simply pointing out that most women do like men who are to some degree or other chivalrous, but certainly they're not looking for the full package of a traditional man. Do you disagree?

Now, this might be cherry picking on the part of women and a result of changes in society in the last century, but I was pretty fair in that I equally accused men of the same type of behaviour. Again, do you think this an unfair observation?

I don't see how chivalry and being a bastard are two sides of the same coin?

That's another can of worms that was done to death in another thread.

[Dudess]

Ok, sorry for having a go. Post edited. There are notions of masculine and feminine but as said, the lines can get blurred. I don't agree that men are being forced to conform to appease the opposite sex. Sure, there are micro examples, but it's not the big picture. And ditto for women. I don't agree women are overall compromising their femininity either. The genders have evolved all right to less rigidly defined roles in society, but the basic tenets are still there.

I do think a man who's a non bastard can still be a somewhat traditional man - chivalrous, protective, not big on housework but making up for this with "manly" jobs. And nothing wrong with that IMO.