[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by blackiebest

Butternuts, are you taking the piss?

No.

[Tidyweb]

Butternut -

What is the craic - is it free to join, how much does it cost be become a distributor?

Any chance of running through a few of the basics, rather than everyone ranting at you.

[Corvus Maximus]

Originally Posted by red sean

How do you include this figure in your tax returns?

Would you? Because I probably wouldn't. I'm paying tax through my eyeballs and If I could keep some away from the 'Don't burn the bondholders fund' then I would. Unfortunately though, I'm not in a position to do so.

Originally Posted by Butternuts

Lyoness Ireland loyalty partners are: Tesco, M&S, Argos, B&Q, NEXT, Arcadia Group, Boots, New Look, Halfords PC World, Currys etc. (recently Woodies DIY). <-- I think those are very big names, and it tells a lot about how big and serious Lyoness is.

That's a pretty impressive list of loyalty partners right there. These are also outlets where I would shop quite frequently. Feel free to PM me with further details if you wish.

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by Tidyweb

Butternut -

What is the craic - is it free to join, how much does it cost be become a distributor?

Any chance of running through a few of the basics, rather than everyone ranting at you.

OK I will try to explain in simple language. Please understand that I don't advertise Lyoness, and not trying to prove something, its just an informational post. Lyoness system is very simple, but like any new thing it could look complicate at the first look.

Concept: What retailers want? More customers, more loyal customers. What customers want from retailers? Bigger discounts, cheaper stuff etc. So this is where Lyoness comes. It brings loyal customers to retailers (and SME's) and gives discount to customers and even opportunity to earn some money.

So Lyoness created this simple but yet very good system that will keep loyal customers because most usual loyalty programs does not work the way they suppose to. Lyoness is pretty much in all around the world, so as a member you can use their benefits anywhere.

How it works: Lets take for example Tesco, as loyalty partner they give 8% discount in total. Lyoness keeps about 1% to keep company running, pay all expenses etc, and remaining 7% are payed off to customer(member). But that 7% is actually split in three parts. 1% (2x0.5%) goes to people who recommended you by two levels. 1-2% (you can chose) is a cash back which you will get in cash and remaining (5-4%) goes to loyalty account where all fun starts

Lyoness idea is really one loyalty card that works everywhere. Bus so far in Ireland only SME's (small medium enterprise business) accepts Lyoness cash back card. Why? Because Lyoness is very new in Ireland so so far there are less then a 10 000 members, so Tescos and other big chain stores don't want to invest to the card readers, train staff etc. for such a small group of customers, in some village where could be 0 Lyoness members. So instead of that Lyoness buys Tescos, B&Q, PC World etc. gift cards (vouchers) in bulks and resells them to members with discount, so each shops gift card is recognized by that shop and no extra expenses needed. They might move to cash back cards when there will be more members as it happens in other countries.

Example: You order Tesco vouchers for €300, so you will get €6 cash back and €12 goes to your loyalty account. When you accumulate €50 system will create whats called an accounting unit. Your friend units are placed under yours and when you get 35 below and 35 units above, Lyoness will pay you €450 to your bank account.. and it will not stop there. <-- this bit could look complicated and needs drawing to explain really good, but when you get it is very simple.

As a member of Lyoness you don't need to do anything you don't want to. You don't need to buy (or sell) stuff, you don't needs to recommend to other if you don't want and still benefit from the system because for example you can still use Tesco club card which gives you about 1% in points and get extra 2% in cash from Lyoness. And yes you can buy petrol from Tesco petrol stations, big savings there. It is free to become a member and there is no monthly fees or anything like that, though to become a member some other member has to recommend you and you have to make initial purchase of total €300 vouchers which you will get instantly or in 1-2 working days by post and you can spend then when ever you want.

To wrap up, there are bits an peaces that needs deeper explanation, but I think system works really well, before I became Lyoness member I never went to Tesco, now I always go to Tescos to get my food etc, I fill my petrol at Tescos, my friends goes to Tescos now as well, I also go to eat to some restaurants that would not know if not Lyoness. So business is happy because they get loyal customer and I'm happy because I get cash back and will come back for more

All loyalty partners can be found @ http://www.lyoness.net/internal/ie/P...erSearch/Index page will show only cash-back discount to see full discount you have to be a member and login.

[byhookorbycrook]

hmmm, so if I use this in another country how is the exchange rate caculated?

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by byhookorbycrook

hmmm, so if I use this in another country how is the exchange rate caculated?

When I tried in another country loyalty benefit was calculated by official exchange rate. So I pay 100% in local currency, swipe card and then Lyoness is transferring cash back to your bank account in your national currency by official bank exchange rates.

You can also see all details about your purchases in your back-office.

[Radharc na Sleibhte]

:DLol so its not a pyramid, more a triangle.

[sirreally]

I have found that getting information from individuals who are involved in this scheme is not a very effective investigation tool. Here's an interesting read though (link to relevant thread here).

Original article (from Swiss magazine L'Hebdo) here: http://www.hebdo.ch/lyoness_ou_facile_148071_.html

[DISCLAIMER: TRANSLATION BELOW. MAY CONTAIN MINOR INACCURACIES]

-----------------------------------------------------

Lyoness, or Easy Money

By Clement Bürge - Posted on 15.02.2012 at 11:35

Lyoness, a community of buyers in 23 countries, is developing in western Switzerland. Crooks or benefactors? The company stirs controversy.

"Are you interested in earning thousands of francs? Join Lyoness." announces *Angelo, with an assured voice and a charming smile. The handful of onlookers, gathered at a hotel in La Chaux-de-Fonds, listens to this modern-day prophet open-mouthed. Armed with a polished PowerPoint, this thirty-something presenter gives the recipe for his miracle solution: join the Lyoness community of buyers. Native to Austria, the company claims to have attracted two million people in twenty-three countries, including 12,000 in Switzerland. It promises its members to get discounts, to recover money on their purchases, or to even earn tens of thousands of francs in cash.

Members can choose: to make money slowly, quickly hit a jackpot, or both. The first method is to acquire a membership card that Lyoness says is free. In reality, it is obtained against the purchase of CHF 450 of gift vouchers in partner companies and offers 1% to 6% discounts from these brands. In this network, which is poorly developed in Western Switzerland, there are small traders, such as service stations Jubin in Jura or Boky, a Chinese restaurant in Lausanne.

A robust approach is applied to converting people into business partners. By investing 3,000 francs in the company, members can withdraw 25,000, provided in turn they recruit a number of investors. That February night in La Chaux-de-Fonds, we will not know exactly how many, such is the apparent complexity of setting up the system. Presented in diagrams, Angelo is excited about the system’s miraculous formula. "It's very complicated," says Josiane*, a lady in her sixties. "No need to understand, it works by itself," interjects an associate of Angelo. "It's fantastic", she says finally. Too fantastic.

Complaints of fraud are springing up everywhere, including in France, Austria and Switzerland. "Very often, people get a few hundred francs, but never more, said Eric Breiteneder, an Austrian lawyer in charge of more than 50 cases related to Lyoness. To our knowledge, nobody has got the famous 25,000 francs."

The problems go back to the heart of the system. "The return of money from the entry of new investors reflects the principle of the Airplane Game," said Fabien Rouiller, a lawyer in the The Commission on Lotteries (Comlot). Also called a Ponzi scheme or pyramid selling, the system is based on the fact that profits are derived from recruiting new members, and not a sale. As long as new members are available, it works. Once the resources are exhausted, everything collapses, leaving those at the top of the pyramid with the most money.

How has the company survived until today? "The law explicitly prohibits this system”, explains Yannick Buttet from the commercial enforcement authority in Valais. “But in addition to the Airplane Game, Lyoness can get discounts. The combination of the two confuses the issue. We are in the grey area. It's very clever." The Austrian Eric Breiteneder agrees: "To launch a trial is often more expensive than the amount invested, hence the longevity of Lyoness (founded in 2003, ed.)"

The damage being caused by Lyoness exceeds the monetary losses, tearing apart families and friendships. "The group works on sponsorship”, attests Anne-Valérie Pinet, a French lawyer who represents the first complainant. “Members are trained by relatives, who are not wary of anything. But once the scam is revealed, the links break." From the outset of the proceedings, the lawyer and her client were subject to threats from the victim's relatives.

Emotion is intensified because of the close relationships that are integral to Lyoness. "These people are fanatics or religious," says Eric Breiteneder. Rituals, a dress code to follow – wearing badges is obligatory - Lyoness regularly organises international meetings. "It sounds like a great mass," said the lawyer. Dance, song, it is a moment for worship. The founder and CEO of Lyoness, the Austrian Hubert Freidl, also engages in the show. Always present in the company's communications, the balding orator is the subject of boundless admiration. "This is our benefactor," said Angelo. Little information is known about the guru. His two partners, Tzvetan Streif and Hubert Wagner, come across as experts in casino games and chance. The three chair the mysterious Lyoness Child and Family Foundation. "This foundation is used to move money from one country to another. But nobody really knows where his money comes from and where it goes," said Eric Breiteneder.

The international headquarters of the company is based in Buchs (SG) "for tax reasons," according to Angelo. But Eric Breiteneder emphasizes its other function: "All contracts of overseas members are signed with the Swiss entity. Swiss members sign a contract with the Austrian group. The reason: they seek to complicate legislative procedures in the event of a trial. "A Swiss firm has received a complaint from former employees of the firm who would have had access to documents proving the fraudulent activities of Lyoness." Today, the law does not allow the Swiss authorities to actively fight against the company. But the State Secretariat for Economic Affairs [SECO] will soon be able to get involved," says Fabien Rouiller of Comlot. From 1st April, the change in competition law will provide SECO with new legal powers, which will finally allow it to seize the files. When contacted by L'Hebdo, SECO said it could not rule before the new law comes into force. But the lawyer in charge of the Swiss case revealed: "Lyoness is frightened, and is seeking to move its headquarters to Luxembourg before the deadline." Lyoness was contacted several times at its bases in Switzerland and Austria, but refused to respond to our questions.

* Names have been changed.

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[Butternuts]

Yeah, seen that mediocre article.

[..] "These people are fanatics or religious," says Eric Breiteneder. Rituals, a dress code to follow – wearing badges is obligatory - Lyoness regularly organises international meetings. "It sounds like a great mass," said the lawyer [..]

That just explains how "good" this article is As always media tries to make big bubble from nothing. Once I saw article in newspaper how Lyoness is a scam and same paper later wrote article how Lyoness is good and retailers are happy with it. Lyoness were investigated many times and nobody found anything wrong. Biggest problem is that people who don't understand this system tries to explain to others and it gets like Chinese whisper. Lyoness never claims that you will earn thousands euros per day etc. its not get rich in a week system. Money does not appear from nowhere, you need to lift you arse and do bit of work.

Lyoness regularly organises international meetings. "It sounds like a great mass,"

Look at this:
http://youtu.be/7aWhGADo9ng Lasts years Sea Fest in Austria, for all Lyoness members free of charge. Does it look like a mass?

Maybe this one looks like mass: http://youtu.be/v6cbTSwRRNU

In less then a year with Lyoness I had loads of free parties, concerts etc. And in my day job over 5 years I had maybe one xmas party where I had one free drink (yey).

[sirreally]

It's funny how you pick out a little part of the article to focus on, ignoring the parts where it directly accuses Lyoness of:

(a) Operating an illegal pyramid scheme;
(b) Using Switzerland as a base for contracts because of its lax laws governing pyramid schemes;
(c) Frantically trying to move its operations from Switzerland to Luxembourg before 1st April, when the new Swiss laws come into effect.

Would you agree that, if all of this is true, then it would appear the party is almost over?

[sirreally]

And here's another lovely story about Lyoness: http://kaernten.orf.at/news/stories/2510656/

I'm not fluent in German - am I correct in saying that this article says that the former managing director of Lyoness in Italy (along with an accomplice) is being accused of transferring €1.5M to his own personal bank account?

Is this story about embezzlement, misappropriation of funds, money laundering, that sort of thing?

Does this seem like a safe company to hand money over to?

[blackiebest]

It is as base as it gets. It is wrong. It is lies. The promoters should be jailed IMO. STAY AWAY.

Blackie :-)

[Butternuts]

(a) Operating an illegal pyramid scheme;

No they are not, to claim this first of all you need to understand that pyramid schema is. Lyoness has product (service), money comes from retailers not from members (except from down payments). I would recommend first learn how Lyoness works then claim something.

(b) Using Switzerland as a base for contracts because of its lax laws governing pyramid schemes;

There IS a law against pyramid schemes in Switzerland so thats a lie.

(c) Frantically trying to move its operations from Switzerland to Luxembourg before 1st April, when the new Swiss laws come into effect.

Funny, where they got that one from. Looks like made up fact, but I cant deny or agree because I don't know this.

Is this story about embezzlement, misappropriation of funds, money laundering, that sort of thing?

That link is almost same article, again some member complaining that he can't get this thousands of money that somebody promised.. I can give you more links like this if you want

Does this seem like a safe company to hand money over to?

You don't need to hand any money. Nobody forces to do voucher down payment etc. You can just use system for free.

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by blackiebest

It is as base as it gets. It is wrong. It is lies. The promoters should be jailed IMO. STAY AWAY.

Blackie :-)

Its funny how we believe in media and even don't try to think with our own heads..

[sirreally]

Butternuts, are you an employee of Lyoness? A spokesperson? Do you even work for Lyoness? If not, then with what authority or verifiable information are you responding to these very serious allegations?

As for using a system for free, first I would need to be sure that it is not a front for an illegal pyramid scheme. At this stage, it appears that the burden of proof is on the company.