[mayomaffia]

Originally Posted by dubhthach

When I stick Enniskillen to Belfast International (Aldergrove) into Google maps it tells me the distance is 126km, big chunk of this is along decent quality road (motorway). When I do the same for knock the distance comes at 122km this is going via Sligo.

If you ask me given better quality road and flight selection Belfast International is the better choice for the good Burghers of Enniskillen

Thats my whole argument, the standard of the road connections from north south east and west to Knock airport are just terrible. Any improvements to these roads will improve Knocks viability. With these improvements Knock will be within an hours drive for a fairly large section of the country.

[DWCommuter]

Originally Posted by mayomaffia

Thats my whole argument, the standard of the road connections from north south east and west to Knock airport are just terrible. Any improvements to these roads will improve Knocks viability. With these improvements Knock will be within an hours drive for a fairly large section of the country.

So all roads should lead to Knock. The N17 isn't that bad and that's its primary connection. So be it. Please face it. Knock is a mickey mouse airport and if it pays its way then fair play. If it doesn't it should close. This airport was a religious brain child that had nothing to do with economics. It has recasted itself into a regional airport, once the pilgrimmes didn't show up en masse. Its business these days is flying real people to where they want to go along with 20 somethings heading to the sun for a week or two of sex and booze. Not quite what the Monsignor had in mind. As I said, if it can maintain this without state aid, let it roll. If not, demolish it. End of.

[runway16]

There is no issue whatsoever of Knock airport closing.

Knock continues to attract airlines which is more than can be said for other Irish airports at the moment. There should be investment in road links towards the airport because it is now the natural choice for the West and North west. An airport like Knock that can open and close according to the schedule has an obvious cost advantage over one that needs to stay open 24H.

OK, it may not be what the Monsignor wanted - but who cares what he wanted. The fact is it is following a course that is succesful, it is slowly building up a critical mass, and it will continue to do so.

Back to the wider issue of airport infrastructure in Ireland generally, Dublin will obviously continue as the major gateway, and sorry to anyone elsewhere who wants it to be "their" local airport, but it is never going to happen, so just face up to it. Cork and Shannon is an issue, IMHO.

There is no need for two airports for Cork and Limerick, and with Kerry thrown in the mix too. The ideal solution would be one airport, centrally located on the proposed M20 corridor, with rail access to each city. This would combine Cork's European route strength with SNN's transatlantic strength and ensure a critical mass which could sustain potentially many more European services and a few more Transatlantic links.

So, we would be left with Dublin, Knock, a combined Cork / Shannon, and Derry to serve the far North west of the country.

There is no point having an airport on your door step if it barely sustain one bloody route. Better to have something at an hours distance where you have a large choice of destinations you need.

[Trotter]

Originally Posted by bk

I think it would be very safe to say that 90% of the Irish population is now within a one hour drive of DUB or ORK or SNN.

Im in Waterford.

Its a 90 minute drive to Cork airport on a very good day.

Its a 2hr drive to Dublin Airport if Im the only one using the Naas Dual Carriageway.

Shannon is over 2 hours away.


You can imagine therefore that the 'Im ok so the rest of them can make do' attitude by many towards many issues including airports, education etc can be frustrating.

So with 60k people in Waterford (low guess), theres 1.25% ish of the Irish population that are more than 90 mins from those airports mentioned, never mind an hour away. Id be confident of finding the other 9% needed to debunk the 90% figure.

[runway16]

The solution to that is to improve road links, not build or sustain yet another airport.

My solution above would be within an hour of Waterford by road if done properly.

60K people wont sustain an airport with a decent range of flights. We need to realise that. It may be handy for whoever wants to fly to London or Birmingham, but not for anyone else, because that's all Waterford airport can really sustain. Anyone flying elsewhere has to go to another airport. Those people are denied the opportunity of a large airport reasonably close by, because everyone wants their little airport down the road - problem is, all those little airports are cutting into each other's catchment area, meaning none of them can really develop and sustain routes.

[Trotter]

Originally Posted by runway16

The solution to that is to improve road links, not build or sustain yet another airport.

My solution above would be within an hour of Waterford by road if done properly.

60K people wont sustain an airport with a decent range of flights. We need to realise that. It may be handy for whoever wants to fly to London or Birmingham, but not for anyone else, because that's all Waterford airport can really sustain. Anyone flying elsewhere has to go to another airport. Those people are denied the opportunity of a large airport reasonably close by, because everyone wants their little airport down the road - problem is, all those little airports are cutting into each other's catchment area, meaning none of them can really develop and sustain routes.

I havent suggested
A) That Waterford Airport serves 60k people because it is used by much of the population of Wexford, Tipperary and Kilkenny.

B) That the government should sustain the airport in Waterford. Id much prefer it to stand on its own legs because it stops the government making cuts in it to appease the urban centres regardless of the social cost to all other areas.

If Waterford had the private investment to extend the runway to accomodate jet aircraft, I believe it would stand on its own very well and service the whole South East region of Ireland even better than it does now. Such a success though would be sour tasting to many that believe that people should live in a major city or go away and be quiet.

I look forward to Flybe attracting visitors to Waterford and the South East and customers to travel to Paris and Dusseldorf (via Birmingam) from the wider south easter region.

[bk]

Originally Posted by Trotter

Im in Waterford.

Its a 90 minute drive to Cork airport on a very good day.

Its a 2hr drive to Dublin Airport if Im the only one using the Naas Dual Carriageway.

Shannon is over 2 hours away.

So basically you are saying you are within 2 hours of every major airport in Ireland and the closest is just 90 minutes away.

Come on, 90 minutes is totally an acceptable amount of time to get to an Airport, it is not as if it is something most people do every day. It is hardly a major hardship!!

I'm from Cork and most of my family and friends drive to Dublin (about 3 hours) to fly (cheaper flights and more destinations). So no, 60,000 people within 90 minutes of an airport don't justify yet another stupid, unsustainable airport!!

[Trotter]

Originally Posted by bk

So basically you are saying you are within 2 hours of every major airport in Ireland and the closest is just 90 minutes away.

Come on, 90 minutes is totally an acceptable amount of time to get to an Airport, it is not as if it is something most people do every day. It is hardly a major hardship!!

I'm from Cork and most of my family and friends drive to Dublin (about 3 hours) to fly (cheaper flights and more destinations). So no, 60,000 people within 90 minutes of an airport don't justify yet another stupid, unsustainable airport!!

Waterford airport is sustainable because it is sustaining itself now.
Its not stupid. and as I mentioned above, its being used by more than 60k people.

You're from Cork, so you're happy to have an airport on your doorstep. If I need to do business for a day in the UK, I need to be able to do it faster than 2 90 minute drives, time spent in security either side, and travel to and from the business I need to do.

Anyway.. I'll bail at this point. Its futile when an airport thats doing very well is termed.. stupid.

[bk]

Originally Posted by Trotter

Anyway.. I'll bail at this point. Its futile when an airport thats doing very well is termed.. stupid.

When I said stupid, I wasn't specifically talking about any specific airport.

Instead I was talking about the idea that an island of just 4 million people and under 500 km long should have 9 international airports!!!

Must of them should never have been built and certainly not where they were.

If you have to do business for the day in London, traveling 90 minutes isn't a big deal. If you are regularly doing business in London, then you should move to London or somewhere closer to an airport that serves London.

You can't justify building expensive infrastructure just because it might be useful to a small number of people. You have to do a cost benefit analysis.

Frankly we are getting to the stage where even Cork and Shannon airports are questionable, never mind the smaller airports.

Of course Waterford is there now. So if it can survive without further taxpayer subsidy or grants, then fair play to it, it deserves to survive, it has proven itself. But it certainly should get another cent of taxpayers money.

[Alfasud]

One way to utilise Shannon would be to build the proposed Chinese Hub close to it. It could use the cargo facility

[Jim Martin]

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

[bk]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

No. Irish Rail did a feasibility study of this in 2006 and found little justification for it, the reports conclusion was:

http://www.transport21.ie/Publicatio..._%20270607.pdf

The high quality road network is a significant factor in the low benefits produced by any of the rail schemes. This can be exploited to significantly improve the bus and coach service from Shannon Airport. We have considered an ‘all bus’ option, which would increase frequencies and reduce journey times consistently, giving a service level almost indistinguishable from that provided by the train service. This is achievable at much lower cost - some initial subvention and minor capital works – and more quickly than the rail options.

BTW The cost of this in 2006 was found to be between €245 and €440 million, with more then a €7million operating deficit. So basically the Western Rail Corridor all over again, but even worse this time.

[MYOB]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

Shannon should have a rail link so that when Cork (fog) and Dublin are shut, there are good communication links available to carry large numbers of people.

How often are ORK *and* DUB shut on the same day, for a prolonged period that wouldn't allow craft to then divert back to ORK/DUB?

I'd imagine "its never happened" is the answer for that.

Originally Posted by deccurley

The N5 and N4 are in atrocious condition in parts.

The N4 is atrocious for approximately 11km out of its entire length (north of Castlebaldwin to south of the N17 RAB at Colooney). This is only due to it having been one of the straightest bits of the N4 as was, even if it has a few lethal bends in it

Otherwise it is generally the highest quality SC road in the country, consisting mostly of offline bypasses and realignments; with DC at both ends and for a bit in the middle. Needs a Carrick bypass, and the Castlebaldwin scheme, done urgently but that's it.

[cson]

Shannon is criminally under utilised given the facilities it has. It should ideally be sold to the private sector where I'd be reasonably confident it would flourish. Whether we can justify 4 International Airports at that point is debatable. NOC is commercially viable and is doing a super job but I genuinely think a completed Atlantic Corridor M road would cause it serious damage if Shannon were to be privatised.

[mayomaffia]

Originally Posted by cson

Shannon is criminally under utilised given the facilities it has. It should ideally be sold to the private sector where I'd be reasonably confident it would flourish. Whether we can justify 4 International Airports at that point is debatable. NOC is commercially viable and is doing a super job but I genuinely think a completed Atlantic Corridor M road would cause it serious damage if Shannon were to be privatised.

Maybe, But remember Shannon is two hours south of Knock airport on a quiet day. I can't see people from the north west travelling a further two hours south just to go to shannon, they would be as well to travel to Dublin.

If the atlantic corridor was completed it would make Knock much more accessible to both Galway and Sligo and might actually start to take more traffic from shannon. Knock maybe tiny but its still filling 3 flights a day to London every day(shannon having 5/day). Sligo and Galway access may give it that critical mass needed to allow other destinations to have multiple flights/day.

Shannon as motorway access from all directions and is still floundering, Cork, Kerry and Shannon in a relatively small enclosed region is probably overkill. For shannon to recover Cork or Kerry will likely have to close!!, lots of Munster is only 90 minutes from Dublin airport(because of the excellent roads in Munster and Leinster), the rest of Munster is served by 3 airports. It doesn't help that two of those are state run. Ideally those 3 airports should of been amalgamated in somewhere like cahir??An airport that would give excellent service and be busy. You'd then have Knock for the west north west and west midlands border region, Cahir for munster and South Leinster, Dublin for the rest.