[Leiva]

Originally Posted by Kess73

Kenny, Comolli, and the owners have all come out last summer and said that the final say on what players are gone for is down to the manager.


If a manager is to get great praise when he spots and gets a talent, then when duds or underperforming get bought the manager has to take the blame for them.

Originally Posted by LuckyLloyd

Well the same dudes bought Jordan Henderson so, you know...maybe they are lacking...

This is who I see influenced or brought the idea of the signings :

Carroll = Kenny
Downing= Kenny
Adam = Kenny
Henderson = Camolli
Bellamy = Kenny
Suarez = Camolli
Doni = Osmonds

but yea the book stops with the manager

[LuckyLloyd]

Originally Posted by Chucky the tree

I'd hardly call Henderson a disgrace or a poor signing. Expensive no doubt but at the end of the day with the new UEFA rules there'll be a bigger premium on English/homegrown players and it'll only get bigger.

If a player plays at your club for three years between the ages of 18 and 21 then it doesn't matter what nationality they are, they are considered Homegrown by your club for the purposes of registering a Champions League Squad.

You need 8, four of which satisfy the above paragraph, the other four which need to have achieved the above at a club in your country at minimum (if you have 8 of your own then great).

I'm terribly sorry, but paying what we paid for Jordan Henderson doesn't help our squad, even if he would make up one of the 8 UEFA spots. We simply won't be qualifying for the CL if we are bringing in players with his level of ability. He is not good enough considering what was paid.

[Kess73]

Originally Posted by Chucky the tree

I'd hardly call Henderson a disgrace or a poor signing. Expensive no doubt but at the end of the day with the new UEFA rules there'll be a bigger premium on English/homegrown players and it'll only get bigger.

Henderson is being called poor value for money in terms of what immediate impact he has on the team in relation to costing a first team price imho.

He might come good in a year, in two years or three years, but in the here and now he is a player that cost between £16m and £20m who is not yet good enough to be a first team regular.

When a look is taken at some of the midfielders that moved last summer, many of whom would have been young players who were far more established/experienced than Henderson, and at how much they cost, then we do appear to have paid a premium and then some for what we got in him.

Same goes for Carroll and Downing.

Seems to me that the club would be better served getting older British/homegrown players like Bellamy or cheaper squad level ones like Adam in order to meet the new rules, and go after quality young foreign players (be they already in the Premier league or playing abroad) with the bulk of our transfer kitty. At least that way we will be able to speculate a bit more as we would get more players for the money spent and have a better chance of a few turning out to be good enough rather than blowing our kitty on a small number of English players and hoping that all or close to it come good.

[rarnes1]

Originally Posted by mixednuts

This is who I see influenced or brought the idea of the signings :

Carroll = Kenny
Downing= Kenny
Adam = Kenny
Henderson = Camolli
Bellamy = Kenny
Suarez = Camolli
Doni = Osmonds

but yea the book stops with the manager

For all we know Camoli or indeed Kenny could have brought the idea of all those players.

It's just pure speculation to suggest a certain number.

[Leiva]

Originally Posted by rarnes1

For all we know Camoli or indeed Kenny could have brought the idea of all those players.

It's just pure speculation to suggest a certain number.

I wasn't stating fact just my opinion .

but Adam , Bellamy ,Carroll , Downing have a waft of Kenny off them .

[kevohmsford]

I would have thought the reason for buying young English players was down to the fact we have to have so many home grown players in the first team squad. Henderson is still a young developing player. I can understand why Downing is getting abuse as he has so much Premiership experience and is way under performing at the moment.

[Chucky the tree]

Originally Posted by LuckyLloyd

If a player plays at your club for three years between the ages of 18 and 21 then it doesn't matter what nationality they are, they are considered Homegrown by your club for the purposes of registering a Champions League Squad.

You need 8, four of which satisfy the above paragraph, the other four which need to have achieved the above at a club in your country at minimum (if you have 8 of your own then great).

I'm terribly sorry, but paying what we paid for Jordan Henderson doesn't help our squad, even if he would make up one of the 8 UEFA spots. We simply won't be qualifying for the CL if we are bringing in players with his level of ability. He is not good enough considering what was paid.

Lucas wasn't good enough for what we paid when we bought him aswell, not many 21 year olds will be. Now whether a young prospect should been purchased when he was the big question, poor timing on Kenny parts I think but in terms of a signing I think he's a very good one just at a bad time/badly used the other funds at his disposal.

Originally Posted by Kess73

Henderson is being called poor value for money in terms of what immediate impact he has on the team in relation to costing a first team price imho.

He might come good in a year, in two years or three years, but in the here and now he is a player that cost between £16m and £20m who is not yet good enough to be a first team regular.

When a look is taken at some of the midfielders that moved last summer, many of whom would have been young players who were far more established/experienced than Henderson, and at how much they cost, then we do appear to have paid a premium and then some for what we got in him.

Same goes for Carroll and Downing.

Seems to me that the club would be better served getting older British/homegrown players like Bellamy or cheaper squad level ones like Adam in order to meet the new rules, and go after quality young foreign players (be they already in the Premier league or playing abroad) with the bulk of our transfer kitty. At least that way we will be able to speculate a bit more as we would get more players for the money spent and have a better chance of a few turning out to be good enough rather than blowing our kitty on a small number of English players and hoping that all or close to it come good.

What midfielders moved over the summer who are more experienced then Henderson at his age? Again I won't argue the majority of the money as been used poorly but you Henderson was a good buy, he just looks bad because everything else was very poor (mis) handled by Kenny.

[spockety]

Unless you accept that about 75% of signings are going to be considered a "failure", you will never be satisfied.

Ever.

(Applies to all teams)

[Kess73]

Originally Posted by Chucky the tree

Lucas wasn't good enough for what we paid when we bought him aswell, not many 21 year olds will be. Now whether a young prospect should been purchased when he was the big question, poor timing on Kenny parts I think but in terms of a signing I think he's a very good one just at a bad time/badly used the other funds at his disposal.





What midfielders moved over the summer who are more experienced then Henderson at his age? Again I won't argue the majority of the money as been used poorly but you Henderson was a good buy, he just looks bad because everything else was very poor (mis) handled by Kenny.

If you look at my post that you read and quoted you will see that I said when you take a look at some of the midfielders, many of whom were young, and what they cost, that the moneyt spent on Henderson looks poor value in terms of immediate first team impact. In fairness if you are going to call me up on one of my posts at least look at what I said in it.

Lucas cost £5m when we bought him. That is far less of a risk financially than buying a 21 yo for £16m -£20m no matter what way you look at it.

As for what young midfielders moved over the summer. Well although a bit older than Henderson at 23, Defour moved in the summer and cost 6 million euro and he is just one.

If we wanted to get an established player for the midfield then Toulalan went for only €10m last summer.

There are a number of others of varying ages that moved for fairly low fees last summer who would have been the type of player that should have been good enough to go straight into the first team.

Hell we could have bought Toulalan and Defour for less that what it cost to buy Henderson and we would have gotten two players who can play in a number of CM roles and both would be able to play alongside Lucas and also to cover for Lucas.

You say Henderson was a good buy.In my eyes we will not know for some time if he was a good buy. So I will ask you what exactly makes him a good buy for this season. Because I did not say that he does not have the potential to maybe come good in the future, so what exactly makes him a good buy for this season for the £16m to £20m he cost?

[Kess73]

Originally Posted by spockety

Unless you accept that about 75% of signings are going to be considered a "failure", you will never be satisfied.

Ever.

(Applies to all teams)

But if you gamble by spending most of your transfer kitty on a small number of players who are vastly overpriced due to nationality and still expect a 75% failure rate then you are going to lessen the actual number of players who may come good.

So for arguements sake if 100m was spent on four English players (and we spent a good chuck of that figure on three) and three failed to come good, then the first team has gained only one good player for £100m.

But if the same £100m was spent on 8 foreign players (maybe already in the Premiership like Enrique was or maybe playing abroad) who have shown a similar level of ability in their careers to the four english players, but who do not suffer from being overpriced due to nationality. Then a 75% failure rate with them means that £100m got you twice as many first team players who were a success.

[rarnes1]

Originally Posted by mixednuts

I wasn't stating fact just my opinion .

but Adam , Bellamy ,Carroll , Downing have a waft of Kenny off them .

Who knows.

I think it is too early to write anyone off as a failure, even Downing who has been the biggest disappointment imo.

The signs aren't good so far though as he's supposed to be in his prime around now.

The others are young and will get better.

[Kess73]

Originally Posted by rarnes1

Who knows.

I think it is too early to write anyone off as a failure, even Downing who has been the biggest disappointment imo.

The signs aren't good so far though as he's supposed to be in his prime around now.

The others are young and will get better.

I would tend to say the others are young and might get better in a Liverpool shirt.

[rarnes1]

Originally Posted by Kess73

I would tend to say the others are young and might get better in a Liverpool shirt.

Carroll will improve, he was better with Newcastle. If only,we would play to his strengths more.

Henderson when deployed correctly has impressed me. He's not near consistent enough yet though.

[Chucky the tree]

Originally Posted by Kess73

If you look at my post that you read and quoted you will see that I said when you take a look at some of the midfielders, many of whom were young, and what they cost, that the moneyt spent on Henderson looks poor value in terms of immediate first team impact. In fairness if you are going to call me up on one of my posts at least look at what I said in it.

Fair enough, I'll break your second post down now to make it easier for me.

Originally Posted by Kess73

Lucas cost £5m when we bought him. That is far less of a risk financially than buying a 21 yo for £16m -£20m no matter what way you look at it.

He cost that 5 years ago, prices have easily increased since then. I'll agree it's far less of a financially risk but sometimes you have to take risks, especially in football.

Originally Posted by Kess73

As for what young midfielders moved over the summer. Well although a bit older than Henderson at 23, Defour moved in the summer and cost 6 million euro and he is just one.

If we wanted to get an established player for the midfield then Toulalan went for only €10m last summer.

There are a number of others of varying ages that moved for fairly low fees last summer who would have been the type of player that should have been good enough to go straight into the first team.

He moved to a CL team though, without CL it's a lot tougher for us. He also moved to a team who pick up regular silverware. Toulalan is 28. Also Henderson has the advantage over him of being able to play on the right. If you want to argue about us buying these guys instead then I think it should be used with Adam, not Henderson. Henderson wasn't signed to be a first-teamer straight away, buy idea? Very possible. Does it make him a bad buy? I disagree.

Originally Posted by Kess73

You say Henderson was a good buy.In my eyes we will not know for some time if he was a good buy. So I will ask you what exactly makes him a good buy for this season. Because I did not say that he does not have the potential to maybe come good in the future, so what exactly makes him a good buy for this season for the £16m to £20m he cost?

I never said he was a good buy for this season, I don't think player should be rated on what they can or can't produce in one season. Is/was Lucas a bad buy because he was poor in his first season?

[Leiva]

Originally Posted by rarnes1

Who knows.

I think it is too early to write anyone off as a failure, even Downing who has been the biggest disappointment imo.

The signs aren't good so far though as he's supposed to be in his prime around now.

The others are young and will get better.

Your right .

Im not writing anyone off i just dont think some of the signings are good enough .

We have seen the best that Charlie Adam can give and quite frankly its not good enough for a starting spot .
Impact sub yes , starter no !

Jordan Henderson is a talent but never should have been bought (yet) as a first team player at Liverpool .
Buying a player/potential so young would have been better if we had strengthened our squad already , then introduce him into strong established setup.
We done things backwards if you ask me and that can damage the guys confidence which aint fair on him either .

Downing has been a disaster to date ..will that change ? possibly .

You all know my feelings on Carroll so im not getting into that . imo he will never evolve into the player or reach the hopeful heights people would like .
i cant see him at the club in 18months.
i lied im writing him off .

Craig Bellamy is a seasoned pro with bags of determination and i wish they would strap him to Downings hip for a week so it rubs off .
Our best signing which cost zero .