[slowburner]

The 'Irish' Roman coins are currently on their way to the National Museum.
When I find out a bit more about their origin, I'll let you know.

[jonniebgood1]

Originally Posted by slowburner

The 'Irish' Roman coins are currently on their way to the National Museum.
When I find out a bit more about their origin, I'll let you know.

Great work Judgement day and Slowburner. Its good to see a genuine benefit come out of peoples interest in heritage.

[pedroeibar1]

From Irish Times Thursday Feb 16th.

So what have the Romans ever done for us?

Ireland’s links with the Roman empire are being investigated in a new archaeological project in which science plays a large part writes ANTHONY KING

FIRST CENTURY AD. The Roman General Agricola reportedly says he can take and hold Ireland with a single legion. Some archaeologists have claimed the Romans did campaign in Ireland, but most see no evidence for an invasion. Imperial Rome and this island on its far western perimeter did share interesting links, however.

The Discovery Programme, a Dublin-based public institution for advanced research in archaeology, is to investigate Ireland’s interactions with the empire and with Roman Britain, aiming to fill gaps in the story of the Irish iron age, the first 500 years after the birth of Christ.

The project, Late Iron Age and Roman Ireland (Liari) could uncover a surprising role for Roman culture, predicts Dr Jacqueline Cahill Wilson, project leader. It offers “a new narrative for this formative period of early Irish history”.

Science is going to drive the project, and the interpretation presented by the researchers will be based on science as much as the archaeology, Cahill Wilson explains.

Roman artifacts including coins, glass beads and brooches turn up in many Irish counties, especially in the east.

Cahill Wilson investigated human remains from iron age burial sites in Meath for her doctoral research at the University of Bristol. She learned much about these people by using strontium and isotope analysis and carbon dating.

Remarkably, this allowed her say where they most likely spent their childhood. One burial site on a low ridge overlooking the sea in Bettystown, Co Meath, was dated to the 5th/6th century AD using radiocarbon dating. Most of the people were newcomers to the area, Cahill Wilson concluded.

The clue was in their teeth. Enamel, one of the toughest substances in our body, completely mineralises around the age of 12 and its composition remains unaltered to the grave and beyond. It is “a snapshot of where you lived up to the age of 12”, Wilson explains.

The element strontium (Sr), which is in everything we eat and drink, exists in a number of chemical forms, or isotopes. The ratio of two of these isotopes (87Sr and 86Sr) varies, shifting with the underlying geology, and this too can indicate where the owner of the tooth grew up.

Similarly, the ratio of oxygen isotopes varies with factors such as latitude, topography and hydrological conditions.

“Enough comparative data is available now that we can start to plot and map the ratios to see where people are likely to be from,” Cahill Wilson explains. Paired analysis of strontium and oxygen in tooth enamel from a burial in Bettystown revealed that one interred individual grew up in North Africa.

Eamonn Kelly, keeper of Irish Antiquities at the National Museum of Ireland, distinctly remembers the Bettystown excavation, which he directed in the 1970s. “One particular burial stood out as being very unusual,” he says. The body lay in a crouched position and seemed to have been treated in a different manner to the rest of the burials. This male could have been a slave, but Kelly thinks he was most likely a trader, possibly from the Roman world.

Roman material has been found at Tara and Newgrange, and Roman pottery has been dredged from the River Boyne. A large coastal promontory fort in north Dublin also turned up Roman objects, and Kilkenny hosts a Roman burial site.

Kelly believes the Romans never invaded because the countryside was unsuited to their villa system: the economic cost-benefits failed to stack up, he says. “These guys could get what they wanted without being physically present. I think what they were interested in from Ireland was agricultural produce, probably butter, cattle and cattle hide, as well as slaves and mercenaries.”

The Liari project will deploy advanced survey techniques in Dublin, Westmeath and Kilkenny to seek evidence for Roman sites. Robert Shaw, senior surveyor for the programme, describes aerial laser scanning, or Lidar, as one of the most important developments in archaeology over the last 10 years.

This models the landscape surface in exquisite detail. The ground-based techniques rely on measurements of magnetic and electrical resistance anomalies of the earth, so no destructive digging is required.

Surveys are not expected to uncover the Roman’s distinctive linear roads or their large rectangular forts, but what did it mean to be “Roman” in Ireland?

The warring centurians and toga-wearing politicians made popular in film comprised less than two per cent of Roman Britain.

“The rest of the people engaged with the new Roman administration in a variety of ways,” says Cahill Wilson, and “there were different ways to be a Roman within the provinces”.

The project will use the latest scientific methods, such as geochemistry, to explore population migration, X-ray fluorescence and isotope analysis to trace the origin of metals and minerals, and pollen analysis to resurrect past environments.

“We need to be a bit more systematic and scientific in terms of what we are doing,” says Cahill Wilson, but these tools are additions to traditional archaeology’s kit.

Kelly says it is not surprising Roman material turns up, especially on the coast facing Roman Britain. We know Niall of the Nine Hostages had a British mother, he says. “These guys were marrying women from the other side of the Irish Sea. There would have been dynastical alliances across the sea.

“Ireland was in immediate proximity to the world superpower,” he adds. “Ireland was becoming heavily influenced from the 1st century AD by Rome. The introduction of Christianity in the 5th century is just part of that process.

“We took on a great swathe of Roman cultural influence, including the Roman religion, and all without a Roman legion landing and telling us how to do our business.”

[dubhthach]

Given that they mention ancient remains I do hope they at least try and extract some viable aDNA (Ancient DNA). Major improvements in extracting viable samples over the last couple of years. However it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't even on their RADAR.

[slowburner]

I've selected a few quotations from the IT article which, I think, probably sum up the Roman attitude to Hibernia.
Much of this has been very covered in this thread which is still developing nicely, if intermittently.
The strontium analysis and the rc dating is new, though. I would love to hear more about the birthplaces of others from Roman or Roman style burials.

“The rest of the people engaged with the new Roman administration in a variety of ways,” says Cahill Wilson, and “there were different ways to be a Roman within the provinces”.

“These guys could get what they wanted without being physically present. I think what they were interested in from Ireland was agricultural produce, probably butter, cattle and cattle hide, as well as slaves and mercenaries.”

Hmm. What about gold from Wicklow and copper? William O'Brien's research into the copper mines of Mount Gabriel states that Ireland was a net exporter of copper in the Bronze Age.
(I'll post a bit more on this later)

“One particular burial stood out as being very unusual,” he says. The body lay in a crouched position and seemed to have been treated in a different manner to the rest of the burials. This male could have been a slave, but Kelly thinks he was most likely a trader, possibly from the Roman world.

To which I add

The following quaint proverb is a relic of paganism,
analogous to the Roman custom of placing a small
coin in the mouth of the corpse to pay Charon his
toll :—
Cha deachaidh aon fhear a réamh go h-Ifrionne gan sé
phighiridh air faghail bháis dó, i. e. no man ever went to
hell without sixpence at the time of his death.

From Pagan Ireland, An Archaeological Sketch. W.G.Wood-Martin. 1895

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by dubhthach

Given that they mention ancient remains I do hope they at least try and extract some viable aDNA (Ancient DNA). Major improvements in extracting viable samples over the last couple of years. However it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't even on their RADAR.

It might not be on their RADAR but it is on their LIDAR
I wonder why the DNA work has not been carried out before?

[dubhthach]

Originally Posted by slowburner

It might not be on their RADAR but it is on their LIDAR
I wonder why the DNA work has not been carried out before?

Well historically it has been very hard to extract a viable sample, plus ruling out risks of contamination (From Archaeologists digging up remains etc. ) etc.

Been some major improvements over the last couple years, and I think way technology is going that in 10 years time it will be quite easy to extract viable samples. As it in 10 years time it will only cost about $250 - $500 to sequence a living persons entire genome given how prices are going (First human genome cost $3billion!)

UCC got a €1million grant for reasearch into ancient DNA (aDNA) there in late 2010.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/DepartmentsCent...Archaeologist/

Project is titled: "From the earliest modern humans to the onset of farming (45,000-4,500 BP): the role of climate, life-style, health, migration and selection in shaping European population history"

I know also of a "Roman DNA" project been driven by a Dr. Kristina Killgrove in the states:
http://romandnaproject.org/
http://killgrove.org/

[nuac]

Hi
Good thread, thanks to all.

Two points

1. I read somewhere that on the Inisjkea Islands off the Mayo coast there was a type of whelk produciing a purple dye much prized by Romans.

2. Investigations on Croagh Patrick show evidence of gold extracted there years before St Patrick got there. I understand gold can now be traced back to source - anythng come up on this re Croagh Patrick or other Mayo gold. There was a pathway from Croaghan in Roscommon in pagan times

[slowburner]

That's interesting about the dye. Can you remember where you read it?
Interesting too that you should mention gold and 'Croagh' together.
'Croagh' is usually translated as reek, stack or staff, hence, 'St.Patrick's staff, reek or stack'. That doesn't tell us very much at all, but Croghan Kinsella on the Wicklow/Wexford border was extensively mined for gold, in antiquity (probably/possibly) and definitely up to the end of the 19th C. There was a gold rush there in 1765.
I suppose the point I'm after is; might mountain names which have 'Crogh' in their roots, be an indicator of the known presence of gold in antiquity?

That gold was mined in antiquity on this island is without doubt.
The Book of Leacan and the Annals of the Four Masters state for the year A.M. 3656 that,

It was by Tighernmas also that gold was first smelted in Ireland in Foithre-Airthir-Liffe. Uchadan, an artificer of the Feara-
Cualann, that smelted it. It was by him that goblets and brooches were
first covered with gold and silver in Ireland.

Foithre-aithir-Liffe is the main ridge of the Wicklow mountains.
The people of Leinster, were once know as Laighnigh-an-Óir, or the Lagenians of the gold.
G.Henry Kinahan (Scientific Proceedings of the Royal Dublin Society 1883) remarks:

As a proof that Ireland, in early historic years, was rich in
gold, Colonel Vallancey quotes the following passage from the
history of Caen in Normandy, by M. Delarue :
" The exchequer (i.e. of Caen) acquired very great consequence and
extent when our Dukes became masters of Anjou, Poitou, Aquitane, the city of Caen was then the seat of the Government, not only of those provinces, but also of Great Britain. The exchequer of England was annually exhausted to fill the coffers of that of Caen, and according to the registers kept in the Tower at London, we find that the treasury of Caen
received in one year, 23,730 marcs of silver sent by the treasury of
London, besides 400 marcs of silver and 200 ounces of gold sent by that
of Ireland—an enormous sum of money for those times."
Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald Barry), who died about A.D. 1224,
also states that Ireland abounded in gold.

Might we have had enough gold to invite the Romans? Probably not, but we almost definitely traded with them. We don't, as yet, know the scale of Hiberno-Roman trade.

[nuac]

SlowB

Cannot remember where I read about purple dye from the Inishkeas. I had a book about them which is mislaid at the moment and it may have been in that.

Croagh Patrick is also called the Reek locally.

It's ancient name was Cruachán Aigle =? Eagle mountain. In pagan times locals climbed it to worship "Cromdubh and his subgods 12". Legends of virgins being sacrificied. St Patrick simply christianised what was going on before. It was a night priolgrimage up to about 40 years ago, when Church and Gardai organised a change to daytime climbing. There used to be a lot of drinking involved, pubs open all night to refresh the pilgrims, and many yolung people climbing were doing more than just saying their prayers. Happy days ( or rather nights )

Various sacred wells etc on or about there are probably pre-christian. Archeological work has been done on CP by Morahan and others, and Harry Hughes Westport has written a history of CP.

As further evidence of gold there in ancient times the river flowing from that area is called Owenwee - Abhann Bhuí - Yellow river.

Substantial gold deposits indentified there in recent times by Burmin and other prospectors. Prospecting prohibited by Govt on religous and culural grounds. \

[Enkidu]

Originally Posted by slowburner

To which I add
From Pagan Ireland, An Archaeological Sketch. W.G.Wood-Martin. 1895
Cha deachaidh aon fhear a réamh go h-Ifrionne gan sé
phighiridh air faghail bháis dó

Do you know what dialect of Irish that is sourced from? It seems Northern, but there is some strange grammar there.

[dubhthach]

Originally Posted by slowburner

That's interesting about the dye. Can you remember where you read it?
Interesting too that you should mention gold and 'Croagh' together.
'Croagh' is usually translated as reek, stack or staff, hence, 'St.Patrick's staff, reek or stack'. That doesn't tell us very much at all, but Croghan Kinsella on the Wicklow/Wexford border was extensively mined for gold, in antiquity (probably/possibly) and definitely up to the end of the 19th C. There was a gold rush there in 1765.
I suppose the point I'm after is; might mountain names which have 'Crogh' in their roots, be an indicator of the known presence of gold in antiquity?

Croagh = Cruach in Irish
Croghan = Cruachán in Irish

án is a dimunitive, eg Cruachán = "small Cruach"

Check out Dineen's dictionary from the 1920's
http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/popup.php?f...=0272-cros.png

Cruach Aoiligh (Aoiliġ) = "Manure heap" hah!

In "Focalóir gaoidhilge-sax-bhéarla" from 1768 they only have basic meaning of Crúach meaning a "Rick" (of hay, Turf etc.)
http://books.google.ie/books?id=C30C...page&q&f=false

DIL has the following:

1 crúach
ā, f. stack of corn; rick: frith ina cruaich (cruaith, v.l. ) isin gurt hé (of wheat), IT iii 196.z . bec leis dúnn ri cond crúaiche `when the corn-rick is roofed ', Met. Dinds. iv 160.215 . med do cruaiche, Laws i 134.13 Comm. dīre do daise .i. it cruaich arba, 170.27 Comm. mo cheas beach mo chruach mo chrann (of Christ), Dán Dé xxiv 18 . luath a cruach ó Chailligh Dé `quickly sinks her cornstack ', Aithd. D. 1.9 . cruach na cliabh arbha, FM iii 288.7 . Also heap, conical pile: crícha cech cóicid fo chrúaich marked by a stone rick , Met. Dinds i 14.23 . cruacha dhóibh ga ndoinndeargadh (piles of corpses), Aithd. D. 20.27 . biáidh an foghmhar na chruaich = a heap , Is. xvii 11 . sreath cláraigh . . . / . . . mun gcruaich `round its top ' (of castle), DDána 119.7 . Transfd. c.€ sgeimhle ó chrúas do chaingne, IGT Decl. ex. 1373 . Mountain, hill: lucht na cruaiche críne (of the Túatha D.D.), ZCP xiii 361 § b . imasoich crúas ciuil croich (as.), RC v 202.3 `vigour of music surrounds the hill (?)', Ériu xvii 90 § 8 . lengait eóin ciúin crúaich `gentle birds leap upon the hill ', Four Songs 20 § 2 . cruach, cnoc, carn, Eg. Gl. 161 .
In nn. loc. ar mullach Cruaiche Mhártain, CF Eg. 66 . Especially of Croaghpatrick: argain na Cruaiche, RC xvii 413.24 (Tig.). dia mbai Pátric . . . / for Crúaich, Met. Dinds. iii 378.6 . Cf. attágar techt hi cruaich cruind, / druing cen crabad, Trip.² 1315 . an chruach ┐ an críoch i dtarla, PBocht 10.28 . See Hog. Onom.

In plant-name: cruach Patraic gl. plantago, Arch. i 330 § 1 . sugh teinegail . . . cruaiche Padruig, Rosa Ang. 102.17 . 110.3 .

Compd. crúach-bás `heaped slaughter', Met. Dinds. iii 242.14 . crúachbhás .i. deargbhas, O'Cl.


2 crúach
o, ā (1 crú). Earlier cruäch. gory, bloody: mo corpán crūäch, Fianaig. 10.3 . do cholg . . . / cruoch, LU 10363 . adnaig tar fót c.€ away from the scene of the wounding , Críth Gabl. 53 . bráen c.€ `gory rain ', RC xxvii 300.1 . fo duilnib sleg coícrind crūach (seven sylls.) `bloody spears ', Hail Brigit 10 . aill is tóla catha crúach, ZCP xi 110 § 30 . isí mór caem cruach high-coloured (of Andromache), BB 427 b 7 . or' ort Gola cruach golach bloodthirsty, SR 5921 .
Perh. in n. pr.: idal and / diarbo chomainm in Cromm Crú- aich, Met. Dinds. iv 18.3 . d'adrad Chruimm Chrúaich, 20.36 .
As subst. slūagadach Liphi, crūach Clóitigi (of king Aed Finnlíath), ZCP xii 235 § 51 .

Dineen has Crúach for bloody/gore I assume the origin is probably to do with stacks of dead (say after a battle)

[slowburner]

This is interesting stuff.
I think the 'heap, conical pile' definition probably fits the bill. Both mountains are this sort of shape.
I wonder if the Sugarloaf was once known by a crúach prefix?

Hmmm, the discovery and working of gold is first attributed to Tighernmas, who was slain during Samhain, while worshipping Crom Cruach.

[slowburner]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Do you know what dialect of Irish that is sourced from? It seems Northern, but there is some strange grammar there.

That would not be a strong point of mine, Enkidu, but Martin was from Sligo
Translation of the Irish quote from W.G.Martin:
'no man ever went to hell without sixpence at the time of his death.'
Martin believed that the Roman burials near Bray which contained the coins, were the result of sailors burying the dead after a shipwreck. The Romans of course, believed it was essential to leave coins on the corpse to pay the grim ferryman of the Styx, or so goes the theory.

[dubhthach]

Originally Posted by slowburner

This is interesting stuff.
I think the 'heap, conical pile' definition probably fits the bill. Both mountains are this sort of shape.
I wonder if the Sugarloaf was once known by a crúach prefix?

Hmmm, the discovery and working of gold is first attributed to Tighernmas, who was slain during Samhain, while worshipping Crom Cruach.

I believe the Sugarloaf is Ó Cualann in Irish, this reflects the tribal/tuatha boundaries, as it was part of the territority of Cualann. Thence the older name for Bray (not Bré) is Brí Chualann, as far as I know the Brí bit is cognate with the words Brigantia and obviously Brighid -- implies heights/exalted one etc.

In other words Bray = "Heights of the Cualann"