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12-03-2012, 00:01   #346
CDfm
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For those interested

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Originally Posted by Morlar View Post
It looks like Alan Shatter has given the quiet nod that he is going to pardon the deserters.

The online campaign (which used lies and distortions throughout) has now taken down it's internet petition :

http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/
Quote:
In the light of the public statement made by the Minister For Defence Mr Allan Shatter T.D. on the BBC NI Newsline Programme, Thursday 2 February 2012, where it is apparent from his interview that the issue of pardons has past the consideration stage and is now going through the steps necessary in the process required for this to take place, and while not pre-empting the outcome, the Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2) deems it appropriate to remove the Online Petition from our website and trust the Minister will act accordingly in due course. We would also like to take this opportunity to thank all concerned who have supported the TEAM EFFORT to date. Future developments will be posted on the Notices Page of this website.
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12-03-2012, 08:59   #347
jonniebgood1
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Are they waiting on an opinion on the legality of this move from the Attorney General?

I have commented before but I think this is a proper development. Interestingly even Sinn Fein agree with the government on this move, that does'nt happen often and particularly in this case given that the soldiers ended up in the British army http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/ta...y-deserve.aspx .
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12-03-2012, 09:57   #348
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I had an interesting discussion about this with my grand-uncle last week. He was an RAF medic during WWII, joined up in 1937 and served in North Africa, Italy, Palestine, Germany before demobbing in '48. He is completely opposed to the idea, as a ex-serviceman, to deserters being pardoned.

Firstly, as a committed anti-Fascist, he believes Ireland should have entered the war - that the threat posed by Fascism had been made clear during the Spanish Civil War and nothing short of a comprehensive military defeat would ever stop 'those mad men'.
However, he also recognised that Dev made a pragmatic decision based on what he believed was best for Ireland. The country was financially in no position to wage war, was still suffering from the fall-out from both the War of Independence and the Civil War and would have had no option but to rely on British Forces at least initially. He fully believes that had British forces reappeared on Irish streets that civil war would have broken out again.

Interestingly, he did mention that the Irish army (his uncle was a captain) had a strong fascist element so he would have expected elements within the Irish army to ally with the fascists...


For him it is simply an issue that these men made an oath to serve in the Irish army and then broke that oath by deserting - what they did after that desertion is to him immaterial. The fact is they deserted.

He spoke of his experiences with deserters in the RAF and the effect this had on operations and moral, and the fact that as a serviceman one didn't have a 'choice' - one followed orders or the whole system collapsed.
He told me of an incident in '42 in North Africa when his C.O. issued an order for a particular airman to be sent on what was essentially a suicide mission. As Staff Sergeant my grand-Uncle requested that he be sent instead of this man, a conscripted father of four, but was refused permission. He had to order the airman on to the plane at gunpoint or face charges himself. I asked how he felt about this and he said he would have preferred to have gone in the man's place, but orders were orders and it was his duty as Staff Sergeant to ensure orders were followed and trust that those in charge, who could see the big picture, knew what they were doing.

He also spoke about discussions which took place among Irish servicemen in the British Forces as to what they would do were Ireland invaded -by either side. All were aware of the possibility and worried about what they would do.
It was a real concern but, he felt that if Britain invaded Ireland, he, as an Irishman, would have no choice but to desert from the RAF and fight for Ireland - but expected that had he ever been captured by British forces he would have expected to have been shot as a deserter.


As for the comments re: morality of fighting to prevent the Holocaust - he dismissed this out of hand. He said that although the powers that be may have had some knowledge of what was going on, the average serviceman had no idea and only became aware of it around '44/45 - by which point Ireland's involvement would have made no difference.
This is borne out by a conversation I had many years ago with a friend of my father's who was a GI. He was in a transport unit and was the driver of the first U.S. truck to enter a concentration camp - he said they had no idea what was in there - they knew it was some kind of prison, had absolutely no idea what they would find and not in a million years did they expect to see the horrors that were there.

My Grand-Uncle also spoke of how the Irish government and ordinary Irish people facilitated Irishmen and Irish women fighting for the Allies. He said that every time he came home on leave (in civvies of course) he was treated as a hero - even by his fanatically republican mother and sister (his father was unionist).


So, the upshot of the conversation was that he believes the deserters got off lightly, that had Ireland been invaded he would have felt compelled to return to fight but would have done so as a member of a Resistance movement not as a member of the Irish Army and would have fully expected to be shot for desertion if ever captured by the British.

That there was concern among Irish people that many in positions of authority in the Free State - in particular in the military and police- had fascist sympathies and could not be trusted so from a pragmatic point of view Dev took the right decision and that the Irish government is not given due credit for the aid it did give the Allies.
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12-03-2012, 10:09   #349
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That is an excellent summary of the contradictions and dilemmas faced in this problem.

The contradiction is the willingness to desert in certain terms, It is very difficult to put one persons justification for desertion above anothers and that seems to be what this discussion is about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannasidhe View Post
He also spoke about discussions which took place among Irish servicemen in the British Forces as to what they would do were Ireland invaded -by either side. All were aware of the possibility and worried about what they would do.
It was a real concern but, he felt that if Britain invaded Ireland, he, as an Irishman, would have no choice but to desert from the RAF and fight for Ireland - but expected that had he ever been captured by British forces he would have expected to have been shot as a deserter.


The Dilemma would have been if a committed anti-facist joined the Irish army and then discovered that the reason they joined (fighting facism) would not be their role. The pejorative possibility of this circumstance should not be underestimated particularly in young men:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannasidhe View Post
I had an interesting discussion about this with my grand-uncle last week. He was an RAF medic during WWII, joined up in 1937 and served in North Africa, Italy, Palestine, Germany before demobbing in '48. He is completely opposed to the idea, as a ex-serviceman, to deserters being pardoned.

Firstly, as a committed anti-Fascist, he believes Ireland should have entered the war - that the threat posed by Fascism had been made clear during the Spanish Civil War and nothing short of a comprehensive military defeat would ever stop 'those mad men'.
However, he also recognised that Dev made a pragmatic decision based on what he believed was best for Ireland. The country was financially in no position to wage war, was still suffering from the fall-out from both the War of Independence and the Civil War and would have had no option but to rely on British Forces at least initially. He fully believes that had British forces reappeared on Irish streets that civil war would have broken out again.

Interestingly, he did mention that the Irish army (his uncle was a captain) had a strong fascist element so he would have expected elements within the Irish army to ally with the fascists...

Last edited by jonniebgood1; 12-03-2012 at 10:14.
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12-03-2012, 10:32   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonniebgood1 View Post
That is an excellent summary of the contradictions and dilemmas faced in this problem.

The contradiction is the willingness to desert in certain terms, It is very difficult to put one persons justification for desertion above anothers and that seems to be what this discussion is about:




The Dilemma would have been if a committed anti-facist joined the Irish army and then discovered that the reason they joined (fighting facism) would not be their role. The pejorative possibility of this circumstance should not be underestimated particularly in young men:
Yes, desertion in certain situations - in this case if the Armed forces one is serving in actually invades one's own country but being fully prepared that, if captured, one could be summarily executed. Were Germany to invade (and we also discussed the possibility of Spain joining the Axis and invading Ireland as a gateway to Britain) most Irish servicemen in the British forces seem to have felt they would remain there rather then join the Irish army.

Grand-Uncle is an avid amateur historian and has done a great deal of research into the whole area of British plans to invade Ireland - imagine his surprise when going through documents in Kew he found a list of names of those in Ireland who were to be immediately placed under arrest and his elder brother's name was in the top ten. Now, elder brother had been an active republican, a member of one of the Cork Flying Squads, and fought on the anti-treaty side. He was also a committed and vocal anti-Fascist and had not been active in any military capacity once the Treaty Side won the war (he was not among the Republican internees during the Emergency)- Grand-uncle is firmly of the opinion that his brother's name was on that list as 'revenge' for his activities in the War of Independence.
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12-03-2012, 12:03   #351
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Thanks Bannasidhe, Fascinating posts, lucky to have that experience.

One of my uncles was in the RN, served on HMS Ajax and later HMS Achilles. He took part in the battle of the River Plate. I never was able to get him to open up on his experiences, other than a few shoregoing experiences in places like Montevideo or Mombasa. His brother was a commissioned officer in the Irish army. I had another ‘uncle’ (married to my aunt) in the RAF, bomber pilot, very active war – more than 10k flying hours, decorated, shot down several times and only once did he mention the War and that was to tell me one story. He said he did it to explain why he never wanted to discuss it again. I understood. In the 1980’s I was involved with a German company, the owner of which had fought at Monte Casino, as had a friend of mine who was with the British Army’s transport corps, fought all the way up from North Africa. I asked the latter would he like to meet the German at a dinner and he refused outright. Although he was quite a mild man, the hatred was there , primarily because the Germans had almost no ammunition left, were totally surrounded/outnumbered but kept fighting.

Has your uncle come across a German book named ‘Uber die Englische Humanitat'? It is an anti-British propaganda book from c1940, supposedly was going to be published in English ‘en masse’ prior to the German invasion of Ireland. The text is mainly in German, but it includes facsimile pages from books in English. It covers diverse atrocities, Indian mutiny, Boer war concentration camps, and includes the address by the 1921 Dail to the US Congress on ‘The Struggle of the Irish People’ which has some fascinating appendices on the destruction of wealth, capital loss in population, etc
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12-03-2012, 12:40   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedroeibar1 View Post
Thanks Bannasidhe, Fascinating posts, lucky to have that experience.

One of my uncles was in the RN, served on HMS Ajax and later HMS Achilles. He took part in the battle of the River Plate. I never was able to get him to open up on his experiences, other than a few shoregoing experiences in places like Montevideo or Mombasa. His brother was a commissioned officer in the Irish army. I had another ‘uncle’ (married to my aunt) in the RAF, bomber pilot, very active war – more than 10k flying hours, decorated, shot down several times and only once did he mention the War and that was to tell me one story. He said he did it to explain why he never wanted to discuss it again. I understood. In the 1980’s I was involved with a German company, the owner of which had fought at Monte Casino, as had a friend of mine who was with the British Army’s transport corps, fought all the way up from North Africa. I asked the latter would he like to meet the German at a dinner and he refused outright. Although he was quite a mild man, the hatred was there , primarily because the Germans had almost no ammunition left, were totally surrounded/outnumbered but kept fighting.

Has your uncle come across a German book named ‘Uber die Englische Humanitat'? It is an anti-British propaganda book from c1940, supposedly was going to be published in English ‘en masse’ prior to the German invasion of Ireland. The text is mainly in German, but it includes facsimile pages from books in English. It covers diverse atrocities, Indian mutiny, Boer war concentration camps, and includes the address by the 1921 Dail to the US Congress on ‘The Struggle of the Irish People’ which has some fascinating appendices on the destruction of wealth, capital loss in population, etc
I'll mention it to him when I see him next week. He is fluent in German (and Arabic) so will be able to read it in the original - if he hasn't already.

Normally he doesn't do into the specifics of his experiences ('What was the Battle for Italy like?' 'Sweaty.') but he opened up during this discussion and spoke of both 'wonderful' moments - realising he was Carthage which had fascinated him as a schoolboy- and the truly horrific - being sent in as a medic (apparently the M.O. was squeamish so tended to 'disappear' when things got 'icky and sticky') to remove the remains of a bomber aircrew who had been killed/fatally injured by some sort of percussive implosion. Most of the crew were decapitated and he found himself - at 23 years of age - unsuccessfully trying to find some way of picking up the heads of men he know in a dignified manner rather then by their hair. This particular aircrew had being deprived of air support by a man he termed a 'deserter'. Apparently, this 'deserter' had been a radio operator and had issued a false order to the fighter planes to stand down before going AWOL. I asked if he thought the man was a traitor and he said no, that he believed the man was sick of death and thought that if there were no fighter planes then the bombers would return to base. Grand-Uncle participated in this 'deserters' autopsy a month later after he had been executed.

He was also part of a mad scheme to 'invade' Turkey dressed in civilian clothes... luckily that one never got passed the issuing of civilian clothes stage as he reckoned they would have been shot as spies within feet of crossing into Turkey - not least because the clothes they were issued with were demob suits from WWI with trousers that went to the nipples, flat caps for the non-officers and top hats for officers (apparently the officers stole the flat caps....) and prison issue braces complete with 'prison arrows' printed on to them...

My G.I. friend would say only that he had driven the first truck into a concentration camp and that he could still see it when he closed his eyes. He wouldn't divulge any other information. As he was Polish-American, and spoke Polish fluently, I suspect he would have been stationed in Poland...but given the military mind - who knows...
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12-03-2012, 12:43   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonniebgood1 View Post
Are they waiting on an opinion on the legality of this move from the Attorney General?

I have commented before but I think this is a proper development. Interestingly even Sinn Fein agree with the government on this move, that does'nt happen often and particularly in this case given that the soldiers ended up in the British army http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/ta...y-deserve.aspx .
That is their right.

Who is covered under the pardon, presumably it is not limited to those who enlisted in the allied forces during WWII.

Does anyone know ?
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12-03-2012, 14:06   #354
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Originally Posted by CDfm View Post
That is their right.

Who is covered under the pardon, presumably it is not limited to those who enlisted in the allied forces during WWII.

Does anyone know ?
This is the interesting part- why do you presume it would not be limited?
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12-03-2012, 14:43   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonniebgood1 View Post
This is the interesting part- why do you presume it would not be limited?
Is it an en masse pardon like this

Quote:
Germany Pardons en Masse Thousands Persecuted by Nazis


By ALAN COWELL
Published: May 29, 1998







Years after the death of many of its likely beneficiaries, a mass pardon was approved today by the German Parliament for hundreds of thousands of people punished unjustly by Nazi courts, military tribunals and medical panels.
The new law is intended to provide moral rehabilitation for those Germans who fell afoul of the Nazi system as resistance fighters, homosexuals or deserters. It also is a formal gesture intended to erase the stigma suffered by some 350,000 people forced to undergo sterilization because of physical disabilities during the Nazi era from 1933 to 1945.
''No conviction which represents typical Nazi abuse of justice will any longer be valid,'' said Horst Eylmann, the chairman of a parliamentary panel that drew up the new law.
However, the final draft of the pardon left some ambiguities over the contentious issues of deserters and homosexuals -- part of the debate that has held up the law for decades as courts wrangled over the status of the Nazi legal system.








http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/29/wo...-by-nazis.html
What I mean is en masse irrespective of the reason for desertion and no matter what reason, organisation or army (Allies or Axis) were joined. ?

Last edited by CDfm; 12-03-2012 at 14:59.
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12-03-2012, 16:36   #356
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Is it an en masse pardon like this

What I mean is en masse irrespective of the reason for desertion and no matter what reason, organisation or army (Allies or Axis) were joined. ?
I understand what you mean by this, would someone who left to fight for Hitler be pardoned. I would think not given that the reasons for the pardon would be partly based upon the circumstances that were apparent at the time and were particular to fighting on the Allied side (stopping facism, ending the Holocaust, liberating death camps, etc.).

I know its conjecture as nothing has been announced regarding this but why do you say "presumably it is not limited to those who enlisted in the allied forces"?
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12-03-2012, 16:59   #357
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I just wonder where this is going. Pardons are always contentious.

Take this

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/ge...gimes-traitors

and this -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...deserters-wwii

What were the term's of those - so what are we comparing it against.

or this guy

http://www.executedtoday.com/2009/01...vik-desertion/

I would like more detail.
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12-06-2012, 22:18   #358
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It seems that this has been decided upon.

Quote:
Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.

He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.

Up to 4,500 soldiers fled from the Defence Forces during the Second World War and did not return to their Irish units.

Many of them joined the British Army.

After the war, the De Valera Government published a list of those who deserted.

Anyone who was mentioned in this book was banned from getting a public service job at any level. http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0612/gov...-soldiers.html
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12-06-2012, 22:38   #359
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So closes thankfully a shameful chapter in this state's history.
The vilification of those who went to fight a very serious threat to this country was disgusting.
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12-06-2012, 23:42   #360
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Originally Posted by infactaniceone View Post
These men were heroes , they put themselves and their lives on the frontline while this "KILLINASKULLY" country had its finger up its ass. They fought because they were trained to fight and felt they were needed in battle. Hoo-ah they deserve more than a pardon, do u honestly think that putting yourself in front of German and Italian bullets was the easy way out. Shame on you all and your bigoted Irish stupidness. Without people like this, people like u would not be here. Remember 5000 made the decision to fight and they were blacklisted when they came home. Shame on Ireland and its usual country bull**** and thank you Grandad for fighting for me to live like i am today, today your war was won.
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