[Jaafa]

Originally Posted by theg81der

What a load of abosulute sexist rubbish. I have a muslim friend who has thought me alot about modesty she doesn`t wear anything and these arrogant veil snobs give her so much grief she doesn`t even go to mosque here in this country. She thinks alot of the muslim community here are the opposite of what her religion teaches they are very radical and showy, definetely not the modest behaviour I see in my friend.

What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?

I have seen this before and have heard of it from others to. It is an unfortunate rivialy that develops between Muslims, each trying to prove they are somehow better Muslims than others, judging others spreading rumors and strife. It's unacceptable and hypocritical as you say.

That said you must understand that these women have not been brainwashed and frankly it's an insult to them, you'd be a fool to see that obviously they have thought long and hard about their choice and have come to the conclusion that it's the one they want. My mother wears a headscarf, my cousins wear, each of them have expressed their reasons for doing so and it's clearly not due to brainwashing. In fact my two female cousins are sisters, one wears a hijab the other does not. How can you claim brainwashing in that case?

I can see you have reason to hate and so you only see the bad,but you must believe me when I say what happened to friend is the exception not the rule, keep your mind open and be willing to accept that most women in Islam are perfectly happy as they. Islam has given a lot to women, allowing divorce hundreds of years before most European countries for example. Yes abuses happen, yes sexism is there, but so does it happen in Ireland. In Iran, what is considered here in the west to be a fundamentalist country, women are members of parliament, they have run for president, they work as Judges, they have more women in college than men!

No society is perfect, if I were you I'd work to fix the problems in your own before trying to change another.

[Mark Hamill]

Looking at the video, I have to say how shallow the niqab/hijab reasons are. The niqab/hijab women seem to be under the impression that their character, personality and contribution to society would be negated or obscured by their physical form, and that if they weren't covered up, they wouldn't have a voice or opinions. Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen? Why do they see their personality and social presence so much in terms of their physical presence? It all seems to be "I'm so beautiful that I couldn't function if people could see all of me, I need to cover up for people to know the real me". But if the real you, your voice, opinions and contribution to society, isn't dependent on your physical appearance, then cover it up to the point of emphasising it? Its possible to dress conservatively without wearing a tent.

Originally Posted by Jaafa

The women in this video clearly have thought a good bit about their choice and that's want you want, you can easily see that none of these women have been forced to make those choices. While I personally wouldn't be for the niqab instead of the hijab, I believe it should be left up to the women to decide that.
The idea that a lot of people propagate is that all women in Islam are forced to where the niqab or Hijab and while there is truth in it, things aren't nearly as clear cut as that.

Their is a difference between a well articulated response and a well thought out response. These women's responses still fall afoul of the logical inconsistencies of the responses from women who are physically coerced into wearing head coverings.

[Jaafa]

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Looking at the video, I have to say how shallow the niqab/hijab reasons are. The niqab/hijab women seem to be under the impression that their character, personality and contribution to society would be negated or obscured by their physical form, and that if they weren't covered up, they wouldn't have a voice or opinions. Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen? Why do they see their personality and social presence so much in terms of their physical presence? It all seems to be "I'm so beautiful that I couldn't function if people could see all of me, I need to cover up for people to know the real me". But if the real you, your voice, opinions and contribution to society, isn't dependent on your physical appearance, then cover it up to the point of emphasising it? Its possible to dress conservatively without wearing a tent.


Their is a difference between a well articulated response and a well thought out response. These women's responses still fall afoul of the logical inconsistencies of the responses from women who are physically coerced into wearing head coverings.

That's ridiculous in fairness, they never said anything close to that.

[Mark Hamill]

Originally Posted by Jaafa

That's ridiculous in fairness, they never said anything close to that.

Yes they did. First the niqab woman described her face covering as helping her present herself "as the sum of her character and personality and contribution to society" and "enabling her to go through a path of spiritual discovery" (35 seconds onwards). Then the hijab woman said her hijab was a message to other people to "judge her based on who she is and what she dose and not how she looks" (1min 35 secs onwards). They consider their physical appearance so dominating in social situations that one covers all but her face, while the other covers all but her eyes.

[oceanclub]

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Yes they did. First the niqab woman described her face covering as helping her present herself "as the sum of her character and personality and contribution to society" and "enabling her to go through a path of spiritual discovery" (35 seconds onwards). Then the hijab woman said her hijab was a message to other people to "judge her based on who she is and what she dose and not how she looks" (1min 35 secs onwards). They consider their physical appearance so dominating in social situations that one covers all but her face, while the other covers all but her eyes.

The irony, of course, is that doing these things in an environment where they are not normally done means you're drawing attention to the very things you're trying to hide.

P.

[dead one]

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Looking at the video, I have to say how shallow the niqab/hijab reasons are. The niqab/hijab women seem to be under the impression that their character, personality and contribution to society would be negated or obscured by their physical form, and that if they weren't covered up, they wouldn't have a voice or opinions. Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen? Why do they see their personality and social presence so much in terms of their physical presence? It all seems to be "I'm so beautiful that I couldn't function if people could see all of me, I need to cover up for people to know the real me". But if the real you, your voice, opinions and contribution to society, isn't dependent on your physical appearance, then cover it up to the point of emphasising it? Its possible to dress conservatively without wearing a tent.

I have a dirty little habit of telling the truth, I hope you wouldn't mind.
Looking at your society, I have to say, how hollow is it. See, problem is, the reason of hijab aren't shallow, you are living in a shallow society. A society which observes no rules. A society, which at one place, presents women in strips clubs, on the other hands, the same society present women as sex object in mind of youth. These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom. It liberates their minds, souls, and behaviours from the evil influences of the world. It helps them to overcome oppressive tyrants, unjust laws, lusts, deviation and psychological complexes which enslave their will. Don't you see kingship of lusts and slavery of will of around. Majority of westren movies/daramas contains obscene gestures,explicit language,and graphic images. Media uses face/hair/part of women/men as a mean to to attract customers. You see they control customer's mind by presenting women parts. It's pretty sh!tty business.

Why would their contribution to society be undermined if their face or hair could be seen?

Are you talking about such types of contribution to society, See, how has your society contributed in destroying dignity and honor of women in minds of youth. In order to present face and hair of women, the same society spit on entire existence of women, You say, reason for hijab are shallow, you have your own reason, but you forget an OCEAN SHALLOWNESS IN THE DEEPPER PARTs of your society.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

These women's responses still fall afoul of the logical inconsistencies of the responses from women who are physically coerced into wearing head coverings.

Its seem you've already made up your mind against islam, No woman is coerced in islam. Islam doesn't support coercion. Sonia Khan, she is pure example for this, She is muslim and she has chosen her own way which doesn't represent islam. If women were coerced in Islam then why would Sonia khan misuse Islam.

Originally Posted by oceanclub

The irony, of course, is that doing these things in an environment where they are not normally done means you're drawing attention to the very things you're trying to hide.
P.

Why are you eager to see hidden things. Why do you have desire to see hidden thing. Can't you control yourself. That is exactly purpose of Hijab. To control lust which forces you to see hidden things.
P;

[dead one]

Originally Posted by theg81der

What a load of abosulute sexist rubbish. I have a muslim friend who has thought me alot about modesty she doesn`t wear anything and these arrogant veil snobs give her so much grief she doesn`t even go to mosque here in this country. She thinks alot of the muslim community here are the opposite of what her religion teaches they are very radical and showy, definetely not the modest behaviour I see in my friend.

What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?

You have a muslim friend, She had her own reason to hate Islam and you are seeing Islam in her distorted views. She had her own reasons but it doesn't make her views universal. You are indirectly saying 5 fingers are equal. by this, you are contradicting universality. Muslims are of two types like any community, The Good Muslims and the Bad Muslims. Bad Muslims misuse Islam or don't follow Islam. May be your friend had meet some bad muslims and this situation lead her to blame whole community of Islam. But it doesn't make Islam bad, it is making your friend bad as she is using a very narrow approach . See, i would be foolish if i blame whole community of christian or jews for crimes of single or few christians/ Jews. Please correct yourself.

Originally Posted by theg81der

What parts is the unveil lady exposing exactly? So all the rest of the women who wear what they want are...........what exactly are you saying I am, am I also a devil of arrogance because I don`t hide my face or hair?

See, for this you've to see dress of Summiah Hussain, I don't know how you look like honestly i don't like the way sonia has presented herself. She looks like a Man, She is looking very arrogant in presenting herself, She even doesn't know what she is talking about, Her arrogance has put veil on her mind, on the other hand, See Summiyah Hussain, words fall from her mouth as flower in the garden. She knows what she is talking about, that is exactly purpose of Hijab, She knows what she is, thanks and peace

[old_aussie]

Originally Posted by dead one

She isn't talking about covering of face... She is talking about Hijab. See, i tell you quran is a message, which is revealed to prophet muhammad. The best way to understand quran, is to look upon life of Prophet Muhammad, his companions, his household.

The life of the prophet muhammad, is that the same fella who implemented islam with the aid of the sword and put you to the sword if you refused to convert to islam?

So, if muhammad didn't get his way he killed you, or am i missing something in the religion of love!

[dead one]

Originally Posted by old_aussie

The life of the prophet muhammad, is that the same fella who implemented islam with the aid of the sword and put you to the sword if you refused to convert to islam?

So, if muhammad didn't get his way he killed you, or am i missing something in the religion of love!

Ah!!! i see, how did muhammad spread islam in Indonesia and Malaysia, if your above quote is true. He must had some magical staff which controls minds.

[Mark Hamill]

Originally Posted by dead one

Looking at your society, I have to say, how hollow is it. See, problem is, the reason of hijab aren't shallow, you are living in a shallow society. A society which observes no rules. A society, which at one place, presents women in strips clubs, on the other hands, the same society present women as sex object in mind of youth.

Firstly, non sequitor. Even if I was living in a shallow society, that wouldn't make the reasons for the hijab any less shallow. Secondly, laws are another word for rules and since my society has laws, which people observe, i dont see how my society observes no rules. Thirdly, youths dont need any help from society to see women as sex objects, if they did, then their would be no need for the niqab/hijab in islamic societies, as no-one would see women as sexual objects in the first place.

Originally Posted by dead one

These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom.

Contradiction. You aren't free if you submit your will to someone else' will.

Originally Posted by dead one

It liberates their minds, souls, and behaviours from the evil influences of the world.

Yes, it liberates them by hiding them under a tent

Originally Posted by dead one

It helps them to overcome oppressive tyrants, unjust laws, lusts, deviation and psychological complexes which enslave their will. Don't you see kingship of lusts and slavery of will of around. Majority of westren movies/daramas contains obscene gestures,explicit language,and graphic images. Media uses face/hair/part of women/men as a mean to to attract customers. You see they control customer's mind by presenting women parts. It's pretty sh!tty business.

Are you talking about such types of contribution to society, See, how has your society contributed in destroying dignity and honor of women in minds of youth. In order to present face and hair of women, the same society spit on entire existence of women, You say, reason for hijab are shallow, you have your own reason, but you forget an OCEAN SHALLOWNESS IN THE DEEPPER PARTs of your society.

I'm beginning to regret responding to you (and its only the middle of the first response). You are just making blind assertions that are the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I". The thing is, even if my society was as shallow as a flat plane, that still wouldn't make the hijab/niqab less shallow.

Originally Posted by dead one

Its seem you've already made up your mind against islam, No woman is coerced in islam. Islam doesn't support coercion. Sonia Khan, she is pure example for this, She is muslim and she has chosen her own way which doesn't represent islam. If women were coerced in Islam then why would Sonia khan misuse Islam.

A "no true scotsman" response that doesn't even have anything to do with what I said. These womens response, coerced or not, still have the same flaws as those of women who were coerced.

Originally Posted by dead one

Why are you eager to see hidden things. Why do you have desire to see hidden thing. Can't you control yourself. That is exactly purpose of Hijab. To control lust which forces you to see hidden things.
P;

What, by hiding even more things? How does that even begin to make sense? You dont remove the control some mysterious idea has on people (in this case, the female form) by making it more mysterious.

[Hobbes]

Can I kindly remind people to attack the post, not the poster. Thanks.

[dead one]

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Firstly, non sequitor. Even if I was living in a shallow society, that wouldn't make the reasons for the hijab any less shallow.

Honestly, deep down, you have more shallowness, ask to yourself, if you're shallow inside, how could you recognize what is shallow or not. You've grown in a society which is fake and superficial, The same society has brainwashed you about concept reality and superficiality and You have lost your reason and taken the wrong path. You have taken lies for truth. The thought that you have the right to step out in liberty at any moment will poison your whole existence. You, in your mind think, that reality is superficial and shallow. See, that isn't problem with yourself. The problem is that You've grown in a society which is purely based on superficiality, a society which takes superficiality instead of reality. Take example of women, Aren't women in your society look so superficial. See, Sonia Khan, She is muslim, but, she is inspired by western culture. Doesn't she look superficial, Like I said, she is looking like male member of society. A society where females look like males and males look like female. That is what they call ocean of shallowness. I hope you would understand, I am trying to tell you that when you say reason for hijab are shallow, you're right, that fault isn't with yourself, the fault is with society in which you've been brainwashed. You have taken superficiality thinking it as reality.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Secondly, laws are another word for rules and since my society has laws, which people observe,
i dont see how my society observes no rules.

Your society has laws/rules, but the thoughts of members of this society follow no rules, I am talking about freedom of thoughts. Your thoughts observe no rules and that is dangerous to your society. As you'r seeing consequences of this in your society. "" Man is a thinking creature. Of necessity he forms opinions. If curbs are placed on the independent expression of his views, the content of his thought may remain unchanged, but his ideas will never find expression in his speech and writings. Islam promote freedom of thoughts by removing the curbs. Curbs, imposed by a community or a state, will ultimately produce a society of hypocrites. No sincere person can ever flourish in such a repressive atmosphere. It is only freedom of thought and expression which can save man from hypocrisy". You thoughts observe no rules, it means you've the curbs in your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Thirdly, youths dont need any help from society to see women as sex objects, if they did, then their would be no need for the niqab/hijab in islamic societies, as no-one would see women as sexual objects in the first place.

Hijab is signal of respect to the desires of men. the moment a man looks at a woman with any brazen or unashamed thought in mind, he should lower his gaze. That is hijab is necessary for youth, who deson't know real status of women. What your youth has been doing in university and colleges, Ask to yourself Mark Hamil. The reason for this, the woman aren't of Summiah Hussain's kind, and they don't know about their real status.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Contradiction. You aren't free if you submit your will to someone else' will.

Ah i see, God's will isn't someone else's will. God knows what slaves human will. God knows what desires put slavery on human's will, that's why he has chosen special dress for female members of his creation.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

Yes, it liberates them by hiding them under a tent

No, it liberates them from your evil desires.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

I'm beginning to regret responding to you (and its only the middle of the first response). You are just making blind assertions that are the intellectual equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I". The thing is, even if my society was as shallow as a flat plane, that still wouldn't make the hijab/niqab less shallow.

I, in my above quote, have given you clear reason, when you say, the reason for hijab are shallow, Your comment don't have value in the eyes of justice, as you have take superficiality as reality.

Originally Posted by Mark Hamill

A "no true scotsman" response that doesn't even have anything to do with what I said. These womens response, coerced or not, still have the same flaws as those of women who were coerced.

"Coercion", Isn't it popular word these days. It is often said, not least by Western folks, that Moslems women are forced into wearing a hijab/burka/veil and that therefore there should be a lock against this sort of coercion, as in the bans sought by uropean politicians. However, I have never seen any of these debates include an obstruction to shapes of coercive power per se.

So on the other hand, Mooslems women are said to be forced into wearing a veil or , there is exceptionally any question of anyone else being forces into wearing whatever it is that they wear. And yet, if I appeared in work today with a T shirt that read I Am A Wage Slave, I would come up against with legally sanctioned disciplinary action from my employer, and many of those who say against Mooslem women wearing a burka, on account of its relational-ship with force, would say, that in fact I had freely chosen to destroy company rules and that therefore I could have n0 problem if I ended up on the d0le.

And clearly force into wearing particular cloths is by no means the sole manifestation of coercive power in everyday life. Capitalism requests all manner of forcible limits on people’s acti0ns -what they wear, what they say, how they work- on account of the fear of losing one’s livelihood, status and so on.

But the result of any acti0n that goes against these limits is widely represented as the symbol of freedom. More important though is the implicit belief that any action to refrain from contravening these forcible extent is also free choice. I am tend toward to say, therefore, that what ‘lurks undr those shr0uds’ is simply an argument for forcible power in its uropean capitalist shape, in which everyone is held to be where they are honestly on account of the free (market) choices they have made.

If this ‘right’ were to be somehow coerced, it would spell the end of telephones. And beards. And sunglasses.

Let talk in usual way, all, Aren't these factors of coercion in your society

1. Prostitutes/Hooker/Pimps
2. Advertisement of women
3. Women in half naked dresses in the streets
4. Pornographic movies being sold online in chunks

Why don't you write something on prostitution on the other hand you have problem with a piece of cloth.

[meglome]

Originally Posted by dead one

I have a dirty little habit of telling the truth, I hope you wouldn't mind.
Looking at your society, I have to say, how hollow is it. See, problem is, the reason of hijab aren't shallow, you are living in a shallow society. A society which observes no rules. A society, which at one place, presents women in strips clubs, on the other hands, the same society present women as sex object in mind of youth. These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom. It liberates their minds, souls, and behaviours from the evil influences of the world. It helps them to overcome oppressive tyrants, unjust laws, lusts, deviation and psychological complexes which enslave their will. Don't you see kingship of lusts and slavery of will of around. Majority of westren movies/daramas contains obscene gestures,explicit language,and graphic images. Media uses face/hair/part of women/men as a mean to to attract customers. You see they control customer's mind by presenting women parts. It's pretty sh!tty business.

It's interesting how you keep saying you tell the truth. I have no desire to insult you but what you see as truthfulness comes across as arrogance and self-righteousness. Your sweeping generalisations are... well sweeping generalisations. I have travelled the world and there's one thing I'm sure about, that people are people. Strip away some superficial differences and people are the same all over the world. You seem to believe that men will suddenly become beasts by seeing a woman's uncovered head, this is utter nonsense. I very much appreciate the beauty of women, just like a sunset or a great painting. Sure I am sexually attracted to women but that doesn't mean I show any less respect.
Your points might stand up if in Muslim countries woman were treated far better than in western countries but that's not true. In many Muslim countries women can't speak out about the terrible things that can happen to them. In Saudi Arabia women cannot drive a car, even when covered. Is that respect? Because that seems like control to me. It sickens me that a woman who is raped can be treated so badly in your society. I could go on but this isn't a competition, no society is perfect.

According to you... "These two women, in the video, have submitted to the will of God and submission to the will of God, is the source of all freedom." Maybe I've missed something but where does God say that women have to be covered?

I never understood from a logic point of view how some people can set their identity by covering up their identity. It makes no sense.

[Mark Hamill]

Originally Posted by dead one

See, Sonia Khan, She is muslim, but, she is inspired by western culture. Doesn't she look superficial, Like I said, she is looking like male member of society. A society where females look like males and males look like female. That is what they call ocean of shallowness. I hope you would understand, I am trying to tell you that when you say reason for hijab are shallow, you're right, that fault isn't with yourself, the fault is with society in which you've been brainwashed. You have taken superficiality thinking it as reality.

The first half of this paragraph is an ad hominem and the only reason I dont label the second half of this paragraph as an ad hominem is that its not clear what you are saying at all. Khan looks superficial? Just because you can see her hair? Doesn't that make you superficial, not her? And, not that she does, what difference would it make that she looks like a male?

Originally Posted by dead one

Your society has laws/rules, but the thoughts of members of this society follow no rules, I am talking about freedom of thoughts. Your thoughts observe no rules and that is dangerous to your society. As you'r seeing consequences of this in your society. "" Man is a thinking creature. Of necessity he forms opinions. If curbs are placed on the independent expression of his views, the content of his thought may remain unchanged, but his ideas will never find expression in his speech and writings. Islam promote freedom of thoughts by removing the curbs. Curbs, imposed by a community or a state, will ultimately produce a society of hypocrites. No sincere person can ever flourish in such a repressive atmosphere. It is only freedom of thought and expression which can save man from hypocrisy". You thoughts observe no rules, it means you've the curbs in your thoughts.

This is one big contradiction. First you say that my society has rules, but my thoughts have none and that is dangerous to society. But then you say that islam removes "curbs" (rules?) from thoughts and creates full freedom of thought and expression and that this avoid hypocrites and is good. So you are saying that Islam is trying to produce a society like mine, with no thought rules, but its good when islam does it, but not when my society does it. Can you make up your mind.

Originally Posted by dead one

Hijab is signal of respect to the desires of men. the moment a man looks at a woman with any brazen or unashamed thought in mind, he should lower his gaze. That is hijab is necessary for youth, who deson't know real status of women. What your youth has been doing in university and colleges, Ask to yourself Mark Hamil. The reason for this, the woman aren't of Summiah Hussain's kind, and they don't know about their real status.

Its hardly respect if it denies it. Can you not just educate youths to know the real status of women? Would it not be better for societies to encourage a social growth and maturity in men themselves, instead of expecting women to change themselves, to alter their own identity, to suit men?

Originally Posted by dead one

Ah i see, God's will isn't someone else's will. God knows what slaves human will. God knows what desires put slavery on human's will, that's why he has chosen special dress for female members of his creation.

You need to justify this more. How is gods will not someone else's will? Even if god was acting in our best interests and was completely right in his actions, it would still be his will that we are submitting to.

Originally Posted by dead one

No, it liberates them from your evil desires.

But they aren't liberated, they have to constantly alter their identity to hide a part of themselves from me. They must live their public lives according to my "evil" desires. The only way for them to be truly free would be to educate me to control my desires.

Originally Posted by dead one

I, in my above quote, have given you clear reason, when you say, the reason for hijab are shallow, Your comment don't have value in the eyes of justice, as you have take superficiality as reality.

But you havent explained why, you just assert that I haven't because my society is shallow. But what difference would that make? Hell, coming from a shallow society would enable me to recognise something else shallow easier than you, so I dont see the relevance.

Originally Posted by dead one

So on the other hand, Mooslems women are said to be forced into wearing a veil or , there is exceptionally any question of anyone else being forces into wearing whatever it is that they wear. And yet, if I appeared in work today with a T shirt that read I Am A Wage Slave, I would come up against with legally sanctioned disciplinary action from my employer, and many of those who say against Mooslem women wearing a burka, on account of its relational-ship with force, would say, that in fact I had freely chosen to destroy company rules and that therefore I could have n0 problem if I ended up on the d0le.

And clearly force into wearing particular cloths is by no means the sole manifestation of coercive power in everyday life. Capitalism requests all manner of forcible limits on people’s acti0ns -what they wear, what they say, how they work- on account of the fear of losing one’s livelihood, status and so on.

But the result of any acti0n that goes against these limits is widely represented as the symbol of freedom. More important though is the implicit belief that any action to refrain from contravening these forcible extent is also free choice. I am tend toward to say, therefore, that what ‘lurks undr those shr0uds’ is simply an argument for forcible power in its uropean capitalist shape, in which everyone is held to be where they are honestly on account of the free (market) choices they have made.

If this ‘right’ were to be somehow coerced, it would spell the end of telephones. And beards. And sunglasses.

As hard as it is to make out what your saying (and its really hard) it seems you are just saying that the west coerces people to wear some clothes, so islam should be able to do it to. How is that a defence?

Originally Posted by dead one

Let talk in usual way, all, Aren't these factors of coercion in your society

1. Prostitutes/Hooker/Pimps
2. Advertisement of women
3. Women in half naked dresses in the streets
4. Pornographic movies being sold online in chunks

No, at least certainly not in the same way that religion is coerced upon people. No-one participates in these activities or has these activities presented to them (I honestly cant tell which way you are looking at these, are you saying people are coerced into these activities, or that these activities are used to coerce others?) with the emotive or physical pressures that religion uses. Children aren't told from a young age to partake or obtain these things under threat of some illogical physical, or metaphysical, danger to their soul or identities.

Originally Posted by dead one

Why don't you write something on prostitution on the other hand you have problem with a piece of cloth.

Because it would be irrelevant to the point I'm making here. Id doesn't matter about any other society and how shallow they may be, the hijab/niqab is an incredibly shallow way to look at a womans presence, identity and contribution to society

[oceanclub]

Back home with the in-laws in Malaysia, I've been trying to gauge, with what percentage of Arab tourist/visitors, how many couples where the women is in niqab, the man is dressed modestly (arms/legs covered as I would if going to a mosque, bearded).

Coming up with none so far.

P.