[daithimacgroin]

result - the executive are all powerful


Surely following that logic, Ireland is basically a non-democratic banana republic controlled by a posse of self-interested individuals

[AlekSmart]

Originally Posted by Scofflaw

One of the problems with the Irish system is that the government - the Cabinet - is not accountable to the Dáil, which it is supposed to be. The non-Constitutional Whip system and our Constitutional requirement that Ministers should be elected constituency representatives means that the Cabinet is effectively just appointed by the party bosses of the coalition parties.

That's what leads to ludicrous situations where incompetent Ministers who make major blunders but who are important within the party are retained - at best they're moved to another Ministry - while potentially competent people aren't even considered.

Seriously, a system which makes Mary Coughlan a Minister in the first place is not fit for purpose. One that then retains her is clearly badly broken.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The real shame being that Ms Coughlan represented only the most recent in a long and proud line of such functionaries.

Taking Scofflaw's point regarding the Non-Constitutionality of the Whip system and qualifications for Ministerial appointments,is there a process whereby this can be realistically challenged ?

Oddly enough,I believe that one of the most significant issues surrounding how Ireland is to emerge from the current malaise is the nature of it's Governing Principles...currently we don't appear to have any....

[Scofflaw]

Originally Posted by AlekSmart

The real shame being that Ms Coughlan represented only the most recent in a long and proud line of such functionaries.

Taking Scofflaw's point regarding the Non-Constitutionality of the Whip system and qualifications for Ministerial appointments,is there a process whereby this can be realistically challenged ?

Oddly enough,I believe that one of the most significant issues surrounding how Ireland is to emerge from the current malaise is the nature of it's Governing Principles...currently we don't appear to have any....

The Germans - that currently despised and dratted people - have a clause in their constitution which says:

(1) Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal, and secret elections. They shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience.

On that basis the Whip system would be unconstitutional.

cordially,
Scofflaw

[edanto]

Wow - that would be a great clause to have in our constituion.

[edanto]

Originally Posted by Slideshowbob

Constitution talk is a diversion from the orginal topic IMHO

Keep it simple guys!!

Slideshow, it is simple. The powers of the Dail are in the main derived from the constitution. Discussion of constitutional reform couldn't be more on topic with your OP.

For example - the number of TDs. That comes directly from the constitution. That stuff is reasonably complex for a good reason - it needs to be precise and cover a lot of ground. Embrace it!

[bette]

Originally Posted by edanto

Slideshow, it is simple. The powers of the Dail are in the main derived from the constitution. Discussion of constitutional reform couldn't be more on topic with your OP.

For example - the number of TDs. That comes directly from the constitution. That stuff is reasonably complex for a good reason - it needs to be precise and cover a lot of ground. Embrace it!

Why should we embrace this constitution? It is old and outmoded. Perhaps you might get some inspiration from post #33, last paragraph!

It well nigh time to look at the issues of:

• The Whip system
• The number of TDs
• The number of senators
• The Presidency
• Salaries of elected reps
• Perks, expenses and allowances
• Appointments

As matters stand the Oireachtas is a great big gravy train and it seems that once elected, a politician loses his/her soul to the money god! Promises are made at election time which are never honoured and that is flagrant with the current lot of inept gravy train passengers!

[edanto]

I meant 'embrace the complexity' of constitutional politics and law. I didn't mean that the consitution is perfect as is. You're taking me up wrong.

It seems like we agree on the need for change, and even on what to change. The hard bit is how to convince the guys in the comfy TD seats to make those changes, especially the lot that are in power now.

[bette]

Originally Posted by edanto

I meant 'embrace the complexity' of constitutional politics and law. I didn't mean that the consitution is perfect as is. You're taking me up wrong.

It seems like we agree on the need for change, and even on what to change. The hard bit is how to convince the guys in the comfy TD seats to make those changes, especially the lot that are in power now.

Mea culpa! It's going to be difficult to make the present shower take heed.

[FreudianSlippers]

Originally Posted by daithimacgroin

result - the executive are all powerful


Surely following that logic, Ireland is basically a non-democratic banana republic controlled by a posse of self-interested individuals

You think the Legislative branches in the USA and most other bicameral democracies are "all powerful"?

I would argue we need a proper Executive branch and more separation of powers between the Executive, Judiciary and Legislative.

[edanto]

Originally Posted by Scofflaw

(1) Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal, and secret elections. They shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience.

Scofflaw, do you know how that clause works in practise in Germany? Are party members bound by a quasi-whip, or are most votes in the parliament actually conscience based?

[Scofflaw]

Originally Posted by edanto

Scofflaw, do you know how that clause works in practise in Germany? Are party members bound by a quasi-whip, or are most votes in the parliament actually conscience based?

They certainly seem to take it seriously enough to repeat it at every opportunity:

The delegates are representatives of the whole people, they are not bound at orders or instructions and only responsible to their conscience (Article 38 I S 2 GG) (independent or free mandate).

A free mandate is extracted from each access. A delegate cannot be forced and/or recalled therefore to a resignation of his mandate. Also he cannot be forced to a certain behavior (whip). A voluntary determination to a certain however behaviour is allowed (party discipline).

While they do have 'party whips', their function is more that of the official functions of the party whips in our system - arranging speaking time, making inter-party arrangements, etc.

Without a full analysis of the recorded voting patterns of German representatives, I can't be sure, but as far as I can see from the literature, the conscience rule is meaningfully observed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

[the culture of deference]

We need a revolution.

We need a new justice system, constitution, education overhaul, banking overhaul, a reassessment of our natural resource contracts, internment laws, and a new health and social welfare system.

As is it our country and our children have no future, unless this government cuts waste immediately.

[MadsL]

Originally Posted by the culture of deference

We need a revolution.

Yes, a revolution to undertake to change the rotten corruption at the heart of Irish politics.

However unfortunately that will involve changing the rotten corruption at the heart of Irish society. It will mean stopping the nixers, the being let off because you played GAA in the Garda's hometown, the turning a blind eye, the 'fair play to ya', the getting of 'the planning' by glad-handing the Councillor. It will mean the end of cash-in-hand, padding bills, fiddling expenses. It will mean the end of false insurance claims, quiet words in ears and no more "I knew your father".

We could have a just, fair and largely law-abiding society in Ireland, but I'm not sure Ireland has grown up enough to 'get' how to get there.

[Overheal]

Originally Posted by the culture of deference

We need a revolution.

We need a new justice system, constitution, education overhaul, banking overhaul, a reassessment of our natural resource contracts, internment laws, and a new health and social welfare system.

As is it our country and our children have no future, unless this government cuts waste immediately.

With respect, thats not in any way practical. It's been said many times but courteously, rewriting all of the code with which a country functions is not an overnight process, it is not inexpensive and it does not generate a quick recovery. Look at any country from the Arab Spring. You think any of them have had an easy time of it?

At most you can hope to look at one section of the system at a time and aim to revise it, like healthcare law or the taxation system. But "revolutions" are in no way practical, if one actually were to sit down and cognitively predict the consequences over even a window of just 5 years. Healthcare alone has been in the process of reform in the US for about 3 years now. And will not be 'reformed' for years to come. And when I say reformed, I mean settled law, im not even talking about in a condition that will satisfy everyone.

[K-9]

Originally Posted by Overheal

With respect, thats not in any way practical. It's been said many times but courteously, rewriting all of the code with which a country functions is not an overnight process, it is not inexpensive and it does not generate a quick recovery. Look at any country from the Arab Spring. You think any of them have had an easy time of it?

At most you can hope to look at one section of the system at a time and aim to revise it, like healthcare law or the taxation system. But "revolutions" are in no way practical, if one actually were to sit down and cognitively predict the consequences over even a window of just 5 years. Healthcare alone has been in the process of reform in the US for about 3 years now. And will not be 'reformed' for years to come. And when I say reformed, I mean settled law, im not even talking about in a condition that will satisfy everyone.

And you never can satisfy everyone, which is the danger of politicians like Bertie and Blair trying to please everybody, you're promising them an impossibility. Though that is probably something shared by all political philosophies, left, right or centre!