[Min]

Originally Posted by Nodin

ahahaha. My fucking eye it is.

Should a Bishop open his yap and stray from the party line about Priests marrying, gays marrying, abortion or anything else Il Papa has a bug in his bonnet about and ye'd see how "autonomous" they are.

You still haven't explained why you're here, deflecting for S Brady?

The authority of the church is in the magisterium which is made up of the bishops and the pope.

Tell me of a Catholic bishop that supports abortion or gay marriage or is against the Pope?

Priests marrying is a different area given St Peter was married so celebate priests is not a dogmatic requirement but then there is support in the bible for celebate priests. The church has chosen to have celebate priests.

I am not delfecting anything, earlier in this topic I said the responsibility in regards to Brendan Smyth resided with the bishop, as the buck stopped with him.

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by Min

...earlier in this topic I said the responsibility in regards to Brendan Smyth resided with the bishop, as the buck stopped with him.

..And he did nothing, thereafter anyone else if they were a decent human being, would have informed the Garda south of the border, the police North of the border and every parent of the abused.

What did the now present top man in Ireland do that is supposed to espouse an example of goodness and charity?

NOTHING!

Disgustingly NOTHING!

Instead, he applied by his own methods, enough 'persuasion' to get the kids to stay silent.

It was bad enough that the kids of the the were abused repeated physically - Brady then compacted their injuries by laying on additional mental complications - for years and years.

He is a disgusting disgrace.
No wonder he is in hiding presently!

[Nodin]

Originally Posted by Min

The authority of the church is in the magisterium which is made up of the bishops and the pope.

Tell me of a Catholic bishop that supports abortion or gay marriage or is against the Pope?

Priests marrying is a different area given St Peter was married so celebate priests is not a dogmatic requirement but then there is support in the bible for celebate priests. The church has chosen to have celebate priests..

VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI has removed Australian Bishop William M. Morris of Toowoomba from office five years after he wrote a pastoral letter indicating he would be open to ordaining women and married men if church rules changed to allow such a possibility.

http://ncronline.org/news/women/pope...rdaining-women

Originally Posted by Min

I am not delfecting anything, earlier in this topic I said the responsibility in regards to Brendan Smyth resided with the bishop, as the buck stopped with him.

So you don't believe Brady should step down then . Wunderbar.

[Min]

Originally Posted by Biggins

I was hoping someone would come out with that - so the point that you have CLEARLY missed is that - and this is important - not only does the pope control those under him in his direct organisation, he also by orders given by himself (downwards in chain of command) also take control of others attached to the Vatican in Rome and which is following his edicts. Through them, the whole further combined structure can be held accountable.

There is a chain of command as with any structural organisation.
As such, that organisation can be held accountable for the actions of those under its 'roof', its members, and/or for those attached to the organisation that is operating under its guidelines.

Recognising that fact (which you seem to outright refuse to do in craziness) as many others have, thus the Rome Org can be taken to task. End of story.

...And thats the law, state law in many countries.

The Pope doesn't control those orders, it is the congregation for institutes of consecrated life and societies of apostolic life which is made up of a lot of cardinals and bishops - no pope in sight.
They deal with the governing of religious orders, discipline and so on.
The Pope is not directly involved, he has the authority to order an investigation and assign someone to investigate but it is the congregation named above that deals with the religious orders.

I think you will find that a lot of the work is done on a lot of matters before it reaches the Pope, like choosing a bishop, the congregation for bishops would have the debates on which of three candidates is the best one for the job and then it goes to the Pope but the work is mostly done by that stage and he would the information from the congregation to make the decision.

The chain of command in the church is not straightforward like you want to make out. The magisterium for example which rules the church is made up of the bishops and the pope. This is what the catechism of the church says: The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

The bishops aand Pope are equal in authority in the magisterium from the basic level to the top level where the Pope issues something ex cathedra and the bishops are in union with the pope. There is also a believe that the pope is infallible which is untrue, the pope is only infallible when something is specifically declared ex cathedra which isn't that often, I think the last time a pope made something ex cathedra was over 60 years ago - and this would have been in union with the bishops.

In canon law 401 it says that a bishop unable to fulfill his office for health or some other grave reason is "earnestly requested" to resign. The Pope as such doesn't have the authority to make him resign.
In the USA, the Obama administration's solicitor general said lower courts were wrong to conclude both that an abuser was acting within "the scope of his employment" and also that as his "employer," the Vatican could be sued. - http://www.catholiccourier.com/news/...abuse-lawsuit/

[Min]

Originally Posted by Nodin

http://ncronline.org/news/women/pope...rdaining-women



So you don't believe Brady should step down then . Wunderbar.

I think the bishop whose responsibility it was to deal with Brendan Smyth has gotten away lightly in all of this and there would be nothing about Cardinal Brady if the bishop in question was still alive or if the abbot in the monastery was still alive.

That bishop who expressed an a will to ordain women was not following dogma.

[Nodin]

Originally Posted by Min

I think the bishop whose responsibility it was to deal with Brendan Smyth has gotten away lightly in all of this and there would be nothing about Cardinal Brady if the bishop in question was still alive or if the abbot in the monastery was still alive..

....but he's dead and gone, and now a man who asked a child if they found being molested enjoyable is the highest ranked catholic church member in Ireland. Seeing as that means hes authority and influence over schools, that strikes me as problematical.

My guess is that if that Bishop was still in charge,or if it was him that made it to Cardinal, you'd be deflecting on his behalf.

Originally Posted by Min

That bishop who expressed an a will to ordain women was not following dogma.

...and was out of there in a shot. Like I said, Rome is in charge.

[Min]

Originally Posted by Nodin

....but he's dead and gone, and now a man who asked a child if they found being molested enjoyable is the highest ranked catholic church member in Ireland. Seeing as that means hes authority and influence over schools, that strikes me as problematical.

My guess is that if that Bishop was still in charge,or if it was him that made it to Cardinal, you'd be deflecting on his behalf.




...and was out of there in a shot. Like I said, Rome is in charge.

No, it would be like bishop Comiskey who offered his resignation which the Pope accepted.

It would have been his fellow bishops who agreed that the ordaination of women was not compatible with the magisterium. That is the worldwide church and if Rome removed him over that then it is far more than Rome in charge.

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by Min

...In canon law 401 it says that a bishop unable to fulfill his office for health or some other grave reason is "earnestly requested" to resign. The Pope as such doesn't have the authority to make him resign.
In the USA, the Obama administration's solicitor general said lower courts were wrong to conclude both that an abuser was acting within "the scope of his employment" and also that as his "employer," the Vatican could be sued. - http://www.catholiccourier.com/news/...abuse-lawsuit/

The fact is that in 2002, Cardinal Law in the EXACT same circumstances as Brady is now, resigned.
For those that want a quick education go HERE and click play.

Brady presently doesn't have the decency even to so this.


O' and for the record seeing as you brought up America, here is a list of churchs (with backup info links) presently that is filing for bankrupts so that they can avoid paying out for their victims there:


Archdiocese of Portland OR (filed 7/6/04)

Diocese of Tucson (filed 9/20/04)

Diocese of Spokane WA (filed 12/6/04)

Diocese of Davenport IA (filed 10/10/06)

Diocese of San Diego CA (filed 2/27/07)

Diocese of Fairbanks AK (filed 3/1/08)

Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus (filed 2/17/09)

Diocese of Wilmington DE and MD (announced 10/18/09)

Archdiocese of Milwaukee (filed 1/4/11)

Congregation of the Christian Brothers/Christian Brothers Institute/Christian Brothers of Ireland (filed 4/28/11)

In EVERY case - and I CAN provide links to verify the above, hell I'll give them though one link below... - the churches in America feared all the above court cases and files for chapter 11 instead to cover their asses.

And I additionally quote:

Sexual abuse litigation in the United States almost always ends in settlement. Until recently, the Catholic bishops dealt with the cases one-by-one and required confidentiality agreements as a condition of settlement. This strategy was apparently intended to keep victims from connecting with each other and to keep cases out of the media. The Kos trial in the late 1990s, with its large monetary award, confirmed the bishops in their fear of the courtroom. We know of 41 cases that have gone to trial since 1950 out of more than 3,000.

Want the link for the above? Here ya go: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/settlements/

The CIVIL cases that was taken for a period is listed on that link.
Pay attention to the section "Largest Settlements by Total Dollar Amount"

What did they pay out for those legal cases in the states?

€1,921,273,974.81

...And they were just the victims that came forward!

----------

Back to Brady though!

Brady - not even as a priest - as a decent human being, if he ever was one, should have informed the Garda/police.
Good god man - that was the LAW!
The LAW. Something in prior state statue and theory he still could be arrested for alone.
(He won't, our current lot, like the last FF mob don't have the balls.)

The law...

Offences against the State Act 1939 Legislation states:
17.—(1) Every person who shall administer or cause to be administered or take part in, be present at, or consent to the administering or taking in any form or manner of any oath, declaration, or engagement purporting or intended to bind the person taking the same to do all or any of the following things, that is to say:—
( a ) to commit or to plan, contrive, promote, assist, or conceal the commission of any crime or any breach of the peace, or
( d ) to abstain from disclosing or giving information of the Commission or intended or proposed commission of any crime, breach of the peace, or from informing or giving evidence against the person who committed such an act.

So - and lets get this VERY STRAIGHT.

* He made kids shut up.

* He told the parents nothing.

* He broke the law in TWO countries by not reporting the activities of the pervert, to the Gardi or the Police.

..And the disgusting gobschite still won't resign where at least others previous in the same situation, had the grace to do!

In the aftermath of the Murphy report November 2009, he gave some of the bishops implicated in that truly shocking document a push out the door by saying: "If I found myself in the situation where I was aware that my failure to act had allowed or meant that other children were abused, well then I think I would resign."

Well guess what - he had failed to act and now he's backtracking to save his precious ass!

Pity he didn't think at previous times of other asses he could have protected - but he didn't!

[Nodin]

Originally Posted by Min

No, it would be like bishop Comiskey who offered his resignation which the Pope accepted.

It would have been his fellow bishops who agreed that the ordaination of women was not compatible with the magisterium. That is the worldwide church and if Rome removed him over that then it is far more than Rome in charge.

.....if you were my defence lawyer, I'd try to defend myself at this stage, as it seems you've concluded that volume is equivalent to quality.

O by the way its not "if rome removed him", its "Rome removed him", because thats what happened.

Why are you not discomfited by the thought of S Brady in charge of schools, or having influence on them?

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by Min

The authority of the church is in the magisterium which is made up of the bishops and the pope.

Tell me of a Catholic bishop that supports abortion or gay marriage or is against the Pope?

Priests marrying is a different area given St Peter was married so celebate priests is not a dogmatic requirement but then there is support in the bible for celebate priests. The church has chosen to have celebate priests.

I am not delfecting anything, earlier in this topic I said the responsibility in regards to Brendan Smyth resided with the bishop, as the buck stopped with him.

If you knew that a child was being sexually abused you wouldnt go to the police?

[Min]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

If you knew that a child was being sexually abused you wouldnt go to the police?

I didn't say that and I dealt with that earlier in this thread in regards to Cardinal Brady.

[Min]

Originally Posted by Biggins

The fact is that in 2002, Cardinal Law in the EXACT same circumstances as Brady is now, resigned.
For those that want a quick education go HERE and click play.

Brady presently doesn't have the decency even to so this.


O' and for the record seeing as you brought up America, here is a list of churchs (with backup info links) presently that is filing for bankrupts so that they can avoid paying out for their victims there:


Archdiocese of Portland OR (filed 7/6/04)

Diocese of Tucson (filed 9/20/04)

Diocese of Spokane WA (filed 12/6/04)

Diocese of Davenport IA (filed 10/10/06)

Diocese of San Diego CA (filed 2/27/07)

Diocese of Fairbanks AK (filed 3/1/08)

Oregon Province of the Society of Jesus (filed 2/17/09)

Diocese of Wilmington DE and MD (announced 10/18/09)

Archdiocese of Milwaukee (filed 1/4/11)

Congregation of the Christian Brothers/Christian Brothers Institute/Christian Brothers of Ireland (filed 4/28/11)

In EVERY case - and I CAN provide links to verify the above, hell I'll give them though one link below... - the churches in America feared all the above court cases and files for chapter 11 instead to cover their asses.

And I additionally quote:



Want the link for the above? Here ya go: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/settlements/

The CIVIL cases that was taken for a period is listed on that link.
Pay attention to the section "Largest Settlements by Total Dollar Amount"

What did they pay out for those legal cases in the states?

€1,921,273,974.81

...And they were just the victims that came forward!

----------

Back to Brady though!

Brady - not even as a priest - as a decent human being, if he ever was one, should have informed the Garda/police.
Good god man - that was the LAW!
The LAW. Something in prior state statue and theory he still could be arrested for alone.
(He won't, our current lot, like the last FF mob don't have the balls.)

The law...




So - and lets get this VERY STRAIGHT.

* He made kids shut up.

* He told the parents nothing.

* He broke the law in TWO countries by not reporting the activities of the pervert, to the Gardi or the Police.

..And the disgusting gobschite still won't resign where at least others previous in the same situation, had the grace to do!

In the aftermath of the Murphy report November 2009, he gave some of the bishops implicated in that truly shocking document a push out the door by saying: "If I found myself in the situation where I was aware that my failure to act had allowed or meant that other children were abused, well then I think I would resign."

Well guess what - he had failed to act and now he's backtracking to save his precious ass!

Pity he didn't think at previous times of other asses he could have protected - but he didn't!

Lots of inaccuracies in your post which I will deal with later as I have now other things to do.

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by Min

Lots of inaccuracies in your post which I will deal with later as I have now other things to do.

O, please, if there was any inaccuracies as regards those cases, €1,921,273,974.81 in SETTLEMENT wouldn't have been paid out with, to begin with!

...And we can be fairly sure the Church orgs MANY legal teams would have pointed them out too - if only to save further money!

[Nodin]

Originally Posted by Min

Lots of inaccuracies in your post which I will deal with later as I have now other things to do.

Go - somewhere out there, a man who asked a child if he enjoyed being molested needs you!

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by Min

I didn't say that and I dealt with that earlier in this thread in regards to Cardinal Brady.

If you were a priest then would you not go to the police if a child was being abused. Would you also not make sure that children were not exposed to this abuser.