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15-02-2012, 11:56   #301
gimmebroadband
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It looks like pressure is mounting on Enda Kenny to overrule Gilmore's Closure of the Vatican Embassy!

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Taoiseach Enda Kenny has come under sustained pressure to overrule Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore's closure of Ireland's Embassy to the Holy See from disgruntled Fine Gael voters and from within his own party, documents released under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act reveal. Records released to The Irish Catholic show that of over 3,154 representations made by members of the public to the Taoiseach up to the end of December 2011, just 14 were supportive of the decision. The overwhelming majority (99.5 per cent) were supportive of reopening the embassy with many loyal Fine Gael supporters insisting they will no longer vote for the party if the current situation remains.
Some Fine Gael local authorities have also written to the Taoiseach asking him to reverse the decision while a Fine Gael parliamentary aide has accused Labour of pushing a ''secularist'' agenda the documents also reveal.


In an email to the Taoiseach, Minister for Small Business John Perry forwards one letter from a constituent, saying: ''This is a sample of the literally hundreds of calls and emails which I have received from constituents over the last week or so, expressing concern and dissatisfaction at the decision.''
Other members of Fine Gael are likely to have received similar amounts of correspondence and the Freedom of Information documents do not cover the period from January 1 until the present when campaigners stepped up their efforts to try to have the decision to close the Vatican embassy reversed.

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/con...h-over-embassy
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15-02-2012, 21:44   #302
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Since 2006, the UK's Holy See representation offices have been combined with its Italian representation offices, and UK consular affairs for British citizens in the Vatican have been handled by the Italian office in Rome. I think a similar arrangement would have worked for Ireland.
Can anyone explain why The Holy See would not allow Ireland's vatican ambassador to operate out of our existing embassy to Italy, which is conveniently located in Rome, when there seems to be no problem with the UK doing exactly that? Their two embassies (as linked to above) show the same address.

Also, to anyone outraged at these embassy closures; the Iranian embassy is closing next week and that's an absolutely huge country. Please support the Ireland Stand Up for Iran campaign.
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15-02-2012, 22:06   #303
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In the province of Ontario, Canada, high school ends at grade 13. It's grade 12 in the rest of the country and also the USA. I think the reason for it is if kids do not go on to third level education they will have finished school with something resembling first year university. Smarter like.

I think poor Mr Gilmore would benefit from a grade 13 class in religious education here just to improve on his kindergarten knowledge base. He probably thinks heaven consists of sitting around on clouds playing the harp and waving your wings.

I can forgive some of the posters here for not realising the signifigance of maintaining good diplomatic relations with the Holy See. But our elected representatives should know better. In the world of diplomacy between nations seemingly small gaffs leave long lasting impressions.

I bet the bill for toilet rolls in Leinster House isn't far off 800,000 euro. Couldn't we make the savings there? (have to admit I'm guessing that figure)
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15-02-2012, 22:11   #304
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In the province of Ontario, Canada, high school ends at grade 13. It's grade 12 in the rest of the country and also the USA. I think the reason for it is if kids do not go on to third level education they will have finished school with something resembling first year university. Smarter like.

I think poor Mr Gilmore would benefit from a grade 13 class in religious education here just to improve on his kindergarten knowledge base. He probably thinks heaven consists of sitting around on clouds playing the harp and waving your wings.

I can forgive some of the posters here for not realising the signifigance of maintaining good diplomatic relations with the Holy See. But our elected representatives should know better. In the world of diplomacy between nations seemingly small gaffs leave long lasting impressions.

I bet the bill for toilet rolls in Leinster House isn't far off 800,000 euro. Couldn't we make the savings there? (have to admit I'm guessing that figure)
At least please try to be accurate,maintaining ''good diplomatic relations'' is a two way street, what have the Vatican done on that front recently ?
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15-02-2012, 22:24   #305
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Can anyone explain why The Holy See would not allow Ireland's vatican ambassador to operate out of our existing embassy to Italy, which is conveniently located in Rome, when there seems to be no problem with the UK doing exactly that? Their two embassies (as linked to above) show the same address.
Indeed why not do the same with the Belgian and EU Embassies?
Why have two in Belgium?

And two in switzerland ? One for the country one for the UN


Or thirteen in the US?
Sorry make that fourteen they list the second UN embassy in addition to the swiss one as PMUN and not as swiss or US



The reason for the Vatican one for a lot of countries was that the Italians broke off diplomaic relations in WWII so all the countries relocated to the Vatican. so why not close the Italian one instead and leave the Vatican one open?

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Also, to anyone outraged at these embassy closures; the Iranian embassy is closing next week and that's an absolutely huge country. Please support the Ireland Stand Up for Iran campaign.

I agree even though Iran administrates about 25 times less people than the Holy See.
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15-02-2012, 22:26   #306
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At least please try to be accurate,maintaining ''good diplomatic relations'' is a two way street, what have the Vatican done on that front recently ?
Did you read this?
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...reland_en.html

But it's not all about sex. Here is a list of those who do not share our great leader's myopic vision;
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/se...0120110_cd.pdf

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15-02-2012, 22:33   #307
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The reason for the Vatican one for a lot of countries was that the Italians broke off diplomaic relations in WWII so all the countries relocated to the Vatican. so why not close the Italian one instead and leave the Vatican one.
Now that's the kind of stuff you learn in grade 13!

Good point ISAW. I didn't know that.
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15-02-2012, 22:33   #308
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At least please try to be accurate,maintaining ''good diplomatic relations'' is a two way street, what have the Vatican done on that front recently ?
Dunno
Maybe?
http://www.catholic-sf.org/news_sele...sid=2&id=59546
http://www.visayandailystar.com/2012.../topstory3.htm
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...?storyid=13104
http://www.tvr.by/eng/society.asp?id=61951

Should we go back as far as January?
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15-02-2012, 22:42   #309
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Now that's the kind of stuff you learn in grade 13!

Good point ISAW. I didn't know that.
Kinda Ironic since the Lateran Treaty with Mussolini set up the Vatican as a state.

But as regard having two in rome- Due to the size of the Vatican City State, embassies accredited to the Holy See are based on Italian territory. and we coulda got the free electricity like the Vatican do!

Actually does italy have a vatican embassy or vice versa?

The Holy See maintains formal diplomatic relations with 176 sovereign states, the European Union, and the Order of Malta; 69 of the diplomatic missions accredited to the Holy See are situated in Rome, though those countries then have two embassies in the same city, since, by agreement between the Holy See and Italy, the same person cannot be accredited simultaneously to both.

Italy recognizes the People's Republic of China, and as such, the PRC Embassy to Italy is in Rome. However, the Vatican City State recognizes the Republic of China (commonly known as "Taiwan"), and as such, the ROC Embassy to the Holy See is also in Rome. As Italy was the first country to recognize the Holy See as a sovereign nation, their embassy was the first one established. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Nuncio_to_Italy

At present, the capital city of Rome hosts 139 embassies for Italy as well as some for the Holy See of Vatican City. Several other countries have ambassadors accredited to Italy, with most being resident in Brussels, London or Paris. This listing excludes honorary consulates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...sions_in_Italy

So it appears other countries do it why cant we?
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15-02-2012, 23:05   #310
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The reason for the Vatican one for a lot of countries was that the Italians broke off diplomaic relations in WWII so all the countries relocated to the Vatican. so why not close the Italian one instead and leave the Vatican one open?
OK, so if we declare war on Italy, it might be useful to have at least one embassy safely within the Vatican area.... except that both embassies were outside of the vatican area anyway, in another part of Rome, so it makes no difference which one of the two buildings we keep.

The question is why will they not allow us to maintain an ambassador to the vatican in the same building as the ambassador to Italy, bearing in mind this is what happens with the UK embassy in Rome?
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15-02-2012, 23:23   #311
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What is the relevance to Ireland ?
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16-02-2012, 04:44   #312
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The question is why will they not allow us to maintain an ambassador to the vatican in the same building as the ambassador to Italy, bearing in mind this is what happens with the UK embassy in Rome?
I suspect they probably would allow us to do that. But that wouldn't result in the same savings, since we would then be maintaining (and paying) two ambassadors, two ambassador's residences (they may share offices, but they won't room together!), ancillary staff, etc. Plus, a resident ambassador tends to do more things - see more people, host more functions, attend or organise more events - than a non-resident ambassador, and the more he does the more it costs.

The UK has two embassies in Rome. They are in the same building, which involves some saving on premises costs, but not much other savings. Our aim is to have just one embassy in Rome, which involves much greater savings.

While an ambassador to the Holy See can't be accredited to Italy, he can be accredited to another country or (as in fact the case) he can double up the post with a home posting. So the Secretary General of of Foreign Affairs can simultaneously be ambassador to the Holy See, and the (presumably relatively modest) amount of business associated with being a non-resident ambassador in a posting with no consular or economic issues can be handled by some comparatively lowly official in Iveagh House who can travel to Rome now and then as the occasion requires. That results in much bigger savings than simply moving the embassy to the Holy See and the embassy to Italy into the same premises.

Ironically, the embassy to the Holy See was vulnerable in the current climate partly because it was such a high priority a couple of generations ago. Some time in the 1940s the government bought the Villa Spada to house the Irish embassy to the Holy See. It cost about $15,000, which might have seemed a lot of money at the time, but the place is worth millions today. No similar investment was made for the embassy to Italy, which remained in rented premises. The result is the comparatively small and, let's face it, quiet embassy to the Holy See was occuping a rennaissance palazzo with extensive gardens in the traditional diplomatic quarter of Rome, while the very busy embassy to Italy was paying out a shedload of rent for some offices in a side street in the historic but distinctly cramped former Jewish ghetto. From a purely economic point of view, the investment in Villa Spada can be used to much greater advantage as an embassy to Italy than as an embassy to the Holy See.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 16-02-2012 at 07:38.
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16-02-2012, 08:27   #313
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But we've been told it's an important listening post! If we close it then how will all our Irish 007 agents get the required intelligence they need to go on hi-tech undercover missions to blow up reactors in Iran or to send our Irish SAS in to rescure our hostages in North Korea?

If the Irish intelligence services lose this vital listening post then the entire free world might be endangered! We could lose our reputation as a major player in the world of international espionage.
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16-02-2012, 09:10   #314
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Back in the day, the according of a high priority to Ireland’s representation at the Holy See was probably justified.

In the 1920s and 30s, the Irish Free State’s foreign affairs were a fairly simple matter.

First priority: the UK. The question of national independence and sovereignty was closely bound up with our relationship with the UK - and, of course, there was unfinished business there. Plus, the bulk of our foreign trade was with the UK, and the trade that wasn’t with the UK was through the UK. Of Irish citizens abroad, the bulk were in the UK. Of foreign citizens in Ireland, the bulk were UK citizens. So, no matter what aspect of our foreign relations you considered - political, economic, consular - the UK was always the no. 1 country to think about.

Second priority: the US. Of people of Irish descent and Irish identity (as opposed to Irish citizenship) abroad, by far the largest and best organised and most self-aware community was in the US. Plus, the Irish political and constitutional traditions drew on the US, as a counterweight to the UK heritage. And, if Ireland needed goodwill abroad in relation to any difference between us the UK, the Americans were the ones whose goodwill you wanted.

Third priority: the European powers, notably France and Germany. If Ireland was going to be seen as an entity separate and independent from the UK, it had to be so seen by countries like France and Germany. And if Ireland was going to widen its international trade, it was going to be with such countries.

After that, I honestly think you could say that the Vatican was the next priority. At the time, and indeed until the 1970s at least, Irish people going abroad and making a difference in the world in any organised way were doing so, to a large extent, through the Catholic church. I live in Australia, for example, where figures of considerable cultural and even political influence were here because they were sent here by the Catholic church. The church was the main agency - certainly, the main organised agency - through which Irish cultural and social influence was felt in places like Australia, and huge numbers of Irish people were playing various roles throughout the British Empire as missionaries, bishops and so forth. We think of Ireland as insular and the church as responsible for this, and on one level that’s true. But, on another level, to the extent that Ireland was cosmopolitan at all, it was because of the church. In the 1970s, I was educated by a bunch of men who had lived abroad for decades - in Europe, in Africa, further afield. And, when I travelled in the 1980s as a young adult, I found that I was far more aware of, e.g. African issues, and knew far more about what was going on there, than anyone who’d been educated in Britain or the US. So from the foundation of the state through to the 1970s at least, any attempt to engage with our exposure as a nation to the rest of the world which didn’t address the Catholic ecclesiastical dimension of that exposure was going to be seriously unbalanced.

That’s been changing, of course, for a generation or more, and nowadays we have more and more international exposure and experience, and it’s less and less connected with the Catholic church. So the priority to be according to the Vatican representation is lower.

But, still. Ask yourself why any country has diplomatic representation at the Vatican. Over on the A&A board they have a thread on this filled with predictable comments about how the Vatican is only 110 acres, snigger, snigger. If I didn’t know they were just being bashful and seeking to divert attention from their thoughtful awareness, I’d think they seriously imagined that diplomatic representation is about territory (and that’s why our embassy to Russia is so colossal).

The Vatican City State was established only in 1929, but the Holy See has been exchanging ambassadors with major and minor powers since forever. At times the Holy See has controlled swathes of central Italy, at other times no territory at all, but it was never about the territory.

The Holy See is an internationally significant organisation. It happens at the moment to control a fairly nominal piece of territory, but that is not where its significance comes from.

The question is, is the Holy See an organisation of significance to Ireland? And the answer is, to some extent, yes, even still. It’s significant for a couple of reasons, one being the involvement of Irish people in the organisation (though this is not the phenomenon it used to be). Another is the fact that the Holy See has a reach where Ireland doesn’t. A lot of people who work in the Holy See have come from elsewhere, or have lived elsewhere for years, and they bring a depth of experience and awareness and a diversity of culture.

And, apart from who you might deal with in the Holy See, a lot of small countries have diplomatic representation at the Vatican because, by doing so, they come into contact with lots of diplomatic representatives of other small countries with which they don’t have bilateral relationships. They network, they establish channels of communication, they discuss issues. Not so much a listening post as an information exchange and network. Let's say Ireland is lobbying for a seat on the UN Security Council, or for support in relation to our stance at an international convention on maritime law, and we need to influence the votes of as many countries as we can? The Vatican embassy will be one of the busier mission engaged in that kind of work.

Now, the Vatican is not unique in this latter regard. Other major diplomatic centres - London, Paris, Washington - serve a similar function. But most of the time, effort and attention of embassies to those countries is taken up with relationships - economic, political, cultural - with those countries. Whereas embassies to the Vatican don’t have the same pressures.

Perhaps participating in an information exchange of this kind is a luxury that Iveagh House can’t afford at present. If so, the embassy to the Holy See is rightly closed. If, on the other hand, it was closed to signal our displeasure with the Vatican over How Recent Issues Have Been Handled, that might be understandable and even gratifying. (It gratifies me, anyway.) But, make no mistake, we’d be paying a price in terms of diplomatic awareness and influence in order to send that signal. And we should acknowledge that.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 16-02-2012 at 09:22.
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16-02-2012, 09:22   #315
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May I ask, Is the displeasure shown by people here at the closure of the Vatican based on religious factors? As recedite pointed out, the Iranian embassy is closing next week. Does anyone care? What about the embassy to Timor-Leste? It is also to be closed. Surely these are still important embassies?

If you take religion out of the equation, wouldn't the same disadvantages at closing the Vatican embassy be relevant to the closure of the Iranian and Timor-Leste embassies? Wouldn't the same disadvantages at Switzerland and Sweden closing their embassies in Dublin be just as important?

I mean, the Vatican isn't even a member of the UN, whereas all the other countries are. Surely those embassies would therefore be more important than the Vatican embassy?
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