20-02-2012, 14:43   #121
Solair
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oldtree Oops caught me out there. That would be and oil burner, coal fire and electric boost for hot water and heating. A while back I did a simple calculation on my parents home, which is not well insulated, of the use of fuels for heating and hot water. 1500 liters oil used @ 2.7 co2 per litre = 4.05 ton CO2 2 tonne coal used (2 fires) @ 2.9 co2 per kg = 5.8 ton CO2 electric boost in mornings for hour over 52weeks 9kw/hr x7x52x 0.532kg CO2 = 1.7428 ton Co2 Total 11.59 ton CO2 I have been told by the owner of a well insulated home, triple glazing, (without heat recovery) that his use of wood in backboiler wood stove was 4 tonnes to meet his heating and hot water needs during the winter and solar met his hot Water needs in the summer. He also said that the solar heated the water up to 15 degrees for most of the winter. He also used the electric boost the odd time but not regularly. Coford in 2008 suggested a wood burning boiler used to heat a home of 150 m2 (1,615 square feet) will use an average of 6 tonnes of pellets per annum and two kilogrammes of wood pellets replace 1 litre of gas oil. And yes it isnt a strong argument merely to point out that we already use imported nuclear generated power here. My own current usage for hot water and heating in a home constructed in 2000 with 5cm insulation and ordinary double glazing is: 900 litres oil for 2011 x 2.7 = 2.43 electric boost in mornings for (probably less) hour over 52 weeks 9kw/hr x7x52x 0.532kg CO2 = 1.7428 ton Co2 Also Dimplex heaters in kids rooms to maintain warmer temp difficult to quantify No fires total 4.1728 ton CO2

Most Irish (and indeed British too) homes waste vast amounts of energy on heating. It's incrediable that we haven't improved standards more dramatically over the decades.

There are still houses built as late as the 1970s that have no insulation in the attic at all and very poor insulation in the walls.
There are heating systems that expend most of their energy heating the foundations, or the pavement outside where the pipes cross over from the little outdoor boiler house.

There are a lot of homes that could make seriously huge financial savings with even relatively minor upgrades. Even really simple things like lagging heating pipes and putting in loft insulation, limiting heat loss from old boiler-house based boilers etc

You'd really have to wonder what it is about these two countries that we are so lax about such things. I suppose, the fact that in general, our climate's more slightly uncomfortably cold and damp than genuinely cold has a lot to do with it.

However, I think there are a lot of older people here who just seem to put up with places being cold and damp as if it were normal. It's the same in England too, there are loads of houses with absolutely inadquate heating and insulation.

France isn't much better either! I've stayed in houses over there that had as much insulation as a garden shed.

From a CO2 point of view, spending a few billion on upgrading homes' insulation and heating systems might be more long-term cost-effective in many countries than spending those billions on new CO2-neutral generation capacity, particularly nuclear.

Last edited by Solair; 20-02-2012 at 14:47.

20-02-2012, 19:03   #122
Capt'n Midnight
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Posts: 40,670
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Solair Most Irish (and indeed British too) homes waste vast amounts of energy on heating. It's incrediable that we haven't improved standards more dramatically over the decades. .... You'd really have to wonder what it is about these two countries that we are so lax about such things. I suppose, the fact that in general, our climate's more slightly uncomfortably cold and damp than genuinely cold has a lot to do with it.
The phrase you are looking for is Excess Winter Mortality.

http://www.ageaction.ie/sign-petitio...-people-winter
Quote:
 Research on fuel poverty and older people by the Dublin Institute of Technology and the Institute of Public Health -- funded by CARDI and due to be published in the coming weeks -- shows that during the winter of 2006/7 there were 1,281 excess winter deaths*. Of these, the vast majority were older people (1,216 were aged over-65).
Countries like Finland don't have anything like this magnitude of excess deaths.

Quote:
 From a CO2 point of view, spending a few billion on upgrading homes' insulation and heating systems might be more long-term cost-effective in many countries than spending those billions on new CO2-neutral generation capacity, particularly nuclear.
It's a no brainer

20-02-2012, 19:18   #123
Capt'n Midnight
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese And a tidal barrage is prob a bit unpredictable
Peek tides to 2026
http://www.pol.ac.uk/ntslf/hilo.php?port=newport

Quote:
 ind of worrying that costs and economics are in the same order as nuclear,5 to 6 years late and many billions over, which prob means Uk gov will push and then subsidise construction no matter the environmental cost..
They got the channel tunnel built, so they can do megaprojects.
The construction cost would be the same as nuclear, but less to go wrong since it's mostly a big inert wall.

Environmental impact is interesting since some species will benefit, and it's more a matter of how you lay it out, especially if you spend a bit more on a two lagoon setup , which maximises power on demand.

21-02-2012, 08:10   #124
Markcheese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt'n Midnight
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese And a tidal barrage is prob a bit unpredictable
Peek tides to 2026
http://www.pol.ac.uk/ntslf/hilo.php?port=newport

Quote:
 ind of worrying that costs and economics are in the same order as nuclear,5 to 6 years late and many billions over, which prob means Uk gov will push and then subsidise construction no matter the environmental cost..
They got the channel tunnel built, so they can do megaprojects.
The construction cost would be the same as nuclear, but less to go wrong since it's mostly a big inert wall.

Environmental impact is interesting since some species will benefit, and it's more a matter of how you lay it out, especially if you spend a bit more on a two lagoon setup , which maximises power on demand.
Sorry I didn't word that very well...the "unpredictable bit" was about how the Severn, and Bristol channel could silt up due to change of flow..
I know Britain can do big projects I was saying they prob would build it because like nuclear it'd give hideously expensive electricity... It's also horribly difficult ,, to build a barrage that long on deep mud in a huge tidal surge. Successfully. Don' think anyone has ever done anything like it...
And there is no storage lagoon in a barrage system... It's not damming a valley .
None of which preclude it from being built as much as cost... And even if they do and don't build a couple of reactors, the uk may still build the other 6 new reactors that they seem to want regardless of cost....

Anyone have a guess at hoe much each spirit irl project would cost, producing how much power,for how many days on a full "charge"

21-02-2012, 08:58   #125
pljudge321
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese Anyone have a guess at hoe much each spirit irl project would cost, producing how much power,for how many days on a full "charge"
Think on a timescale of hours rather than days.

21-02-2012, 10:46   #126
Oldtree
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Location: Mayo
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese Don' think anyone has ever done anything like it
There appears only to have been three tidal power plants, with more bigger ones planned.

Rance Tidal Tidal Power Plant France 240 MW.
Annapolis Royal Tidal Power Plant USA 20 MW operates on the same principle of tidal barrage and it has also faced issues of damage to river and marine life.
Jiangxia Tidal Tidal Power Plant China 3.2 Mw.

21-02-2012, 11:26   #127
djpbarry
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese Because the main thrust of the thread is supposed to be" wind pumped hydro storage".
Ok, fair enough, but more generally, I don't see why the harnessing of tidal power should not be pursued, if it can be shown to be economically viable.

21-02-2012, 11:32   #128
Markcheese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldtree
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese Don' think anyone has ever done anything like it
There appears only to have been three tidal power plants, with more bigger ones planned.

Rance Tidal Tidal Power Plant France 240 MW.
Annapolis Royal Tidal Power Plant USA 20 MW operates on the same principle of tidal barrage and it has also faced issues of damage to river and marine life.
Jiangxia Tidal Tidal Power Plant China 3.2 Mw.

I know it's a different situation but how appropriate would tidal system be to Ireland . The neck of cork harbour is pretty narrow between Forts Camden and Carlille ( I know Maher and Davis) it's state owned either side, would provide power in an industrialised area , would need a damm so would have storage and would protect Cork Harbour, port of cork ,cork city and most importantly MY HOUSE, from global warming related flooding...... Of course there is small matter of cost ,environmental impact, possibly tiny amount of power provided, maybe no global warming flooding ect ...... But this is the second city ( and my house) we're talking about)

Could a scheme work on the backwater....the shannon. Presume Dublin bay and the Liffey are out...?

 21-02-2012, 11:40 #129 Oldtree Registered User     Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Mayo Posts: 1,822 Backwater indeed! First ye want to steal our water and now any power produced there. NO
21-02-2012, 12:12   #130
Markcheese
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oldtree Backwater indeed! First ye want to steal our water and now any power produced there. NO
Sorry. Yet another typo (damn predictive text) Supposed to be Blackwater.....

Where are u that u think it's a back water.... Bit sensitive are u ???

Last edited by Markcheese; 21-02-2012 at 16:47.

21-02-2012, 16:06   #131
Capt'n Midnight
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese I know it's a different situation but how appropriate would tidal system be to Ireland .
There are tidal turbines in Carligford Lough. which would be more suited to places where shipping means you can't really block the passage

plans for 230 - 300MW tidal system up north , I don't have link , it's from a figure in a table on planning stage

reminder the French tidal thingy has been going for yonks now , and there are many bays on UK and Irish West coasts where it could be used. Also if you have two lagoons , one full, one empty, you can transfer water between then regardless of the state of the tide - useful for when you need to peak between high and low tide (two low and two high tides a day - so never more than a few hours of low power, and the tide is different in different parts of the country. )

If you could figure out how to use tidal or wave or wind power to pump water into pumped storage fairly directly without generators and motors you could be on to a winner

 22-02-2012, 09:04 #132 Markcheese Registered User   Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 851 The test turbine in strangford is in a deep, v fast flowing channel,it's like an underwater wind turbine(a bit). I know the ESB are partners in it, so assume it could have applications here.... If it performs.... Not sure have they built a full size one yet...
 22-02-2012, 11:58 #133 Oldtree Registered User     Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Mayo Posts: 1,822 Consultancy case for proposed 480MW Seawater Pumped Hydroelectric Energy Storage (PHES) Scheme at Glinsk, Co. Mayo by Organic Power Limited lodged on 28/04/2010 is in Abeyance? http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/PC0093.htm anybody know what that means?
23-02-2012, 15:18   #134
Capt'n Midnight
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Markcheese The test turbine in strangford is in a deep, v fast flowing channel,it's like an underwater wind turbine(a bit). I know the ESB are partners in it, so assume it could have applications here.... If it performs.... Not sure have they built a full size one yet...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-euro...rnsey-17132574

Siemens have just bought in

23-02-2012, 15:40   #135
Capt'n Midnight
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Oldtree anybody know what that means?
http://www.organicpower.ie/content/projects/glinsk.htm
Quote:
 Local residents in Belderg, the closest village to the site of the proposed 960MW SWPHES scheme at Glinsk and national organisations have endorsed the project in principle. ... The proposal includes a new high voltage transmission line to deliver the area’s strategic potential in wind and ocean energy to the existing high voltage network via an undersea cable, thus avoiding issues associated with overhead power lines. ... It is planned to commission the facility in 2013.
And they will use the interconnector

Quote:
 The MAREX initiative (Method for Atlantic Renewable Energy Export) aims to provide an underground High Voltage Direct Current Cable transmission connection from North Mayo (i.e. the Energy Storage Hub proposed by Organic Power at Glinsk) to the Irish terminus of the East West Interconnector which links the UK and Irish electricity grids.
The company is also involved in Biomass which is another way of storing electricity , you only fire up the generators when there is demand.

Reservoir location on page 4 of
http://www.organicpower.ie/pdf/glins...ust%202011.pdf

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