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Red Sauce · 14-10-2011, 11:17

Hey all,

I got a letter yesterday asking me to declare all money that I've made from 'performing in musical venues'. My bandmates have all gotten letters too.

Thing is, we've never made any money. Most of you on this forum will know how impossible it is to make any money as an original band. If we were in it for the money we'd play covers and go to pubs. We try to play showcase gigs where possible where no money changes hands whatsoever. The (very) odd time a venue might throw ya 30 quid for petrol or lob ya out a few free pints but even that's rare. If we run our own gig we'd maximum get 10-15 heads in which will only occasionally come close to covering the cost of running the show, never mind posters, food, petrol or sometimes accommodation. We obviously have no receipts for any of this, and can barely even remember ourselves. Bottom line is, this is a few lads with an (expensive) hobby, not a business.

Why bother? Because we love it. We enjoy packing up our gear on a weekend and tipping off around the country. Have a few pints, meet a few people, play a few tunes, have the craic and feck off home again. It's better than sitting around a crappy midlands town on a Saturday night. Simple as.

I know the country's up s*** creek at the minute but really is it even worth their while? We couldn't possibly owe more than 20-30 euro spread over out two and a half years! I can understand them cracking down on bands who actually make a living or a decent chunk of cash on the side but we’re talking pennies here. Now we're looking at maybe being fined for not declaring an income that doesn't exist!

I'm also currently on jobseekers (not by choice) which hopefully this whole thing won't completely screw up on me.

We're still waiting for IMRO and an accountant to get back to us but does anyone else have experience of this happening to them?

Oh, and any young bands reading this, sort out your finances. We never even thought about it before this but apparently it's important.

Sorry for the rant, I'm a nice person normally.

Mongarra · 14-10-2011, 11:32

If you have not made any profit from the band then you will have no liability to Income tax or levies. The only problem I see is that you do not have the paperwork to prove it.

Between you all you can surely compile a list of payments received from various venues. Individually you may be able to remember when you bought your equipment/gear and how much it cost as you can claim wear and tear on this at a rate of 12.5% per annum.

Mileage can be calculated to give an estimate of petrol expenses incurred and an element of wear and tear on whatever cars/vans you use will be allowed. You mention some other expenses in your own post and don't forget to claim light, heat and power for rehearsals in each others homes or hall or wherever. Items such as repairs, replacement (guitar strings/drumsticks and the like) are also deductible as an expense. Also, if you do not have a receipt for everything, a good estimate is usually acceptable.

Going to the accountant was a good move. He, no doubt, will advise you on correct procedures.

mg1 · 14-10-2011, 12:27

I hate ti say i told ye so but have a good read of the thread i started a few weeks ago.
By the way an accountand will sort it out in a jiffy and you should not really be in much bother!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2056395189

Red Sauce · 14-10-2011, 15:57

Cheers for that lads. I have actually hung on to the recipts for most of my gear so maybe I'll try that. From now on I'm hanging on to everything. We're lucky that the accountant is a friend of one of the lads, otherwise we wouldn't be able to afford one. Hopefull we'll get this sorted soon as we're not gigging again until it's all cleared up.

Duke Leonal Felmet · 14-10-2011, 16:20

Can you prove that you have been actively seeking work? That might be an issue.

Red Sauce · 14-10-2011, 16:39

That hopefully won't come in to it. I've been on a FÁS work placement scheme for the past 8 months (not Jobsbridge, the one before that) doing a 9-5 and have stacks of emails sent out to possible employers that I can print off. Playing music is just a hobby I happen to have. I don't make any money from it, but as I've been audited I'm worried it'll screw up my dole (supposed undeclared income etc...). Also, if we have to register our band as a business in order to be tax compliant in the future (regardless of how little money we make) does that make me self employed and again does that screw up my dole? Maybe this is actually the wrong forum to be asking this.
If I could just get a proper job none of that would matter but ye all know the way the f***in country is...

the_syco · 14-10-2011, 17:16

I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

Duke Leonal Felmet · 15-10-2011, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_syco

I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

Is revenue attending gigs or something? Or are they able to track it if the band has an online presence? If it's the latter, it would make me question the sense in publically advertising shows online.

jus_tin4 · 15-10-2011, 20:10

also get receipts from venues sound engineers or any of that sorta stuff! Tax people are audits pubs/venues. thats how your getting caught. they arent picking on you cos they are just been c**** but that they have found you are getting money.

they are looking around shops ads or anything of that sort to see whos doing grinds lessons anything that they know where people are earning money on the black market

mg1 · 16-10-2011, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_syco

I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

In most of the cases that i have heard about from musicians, the pubs are being audited and the publican is handing over band names because he has to prove where the money was spent!

r.duke · 17-10-2011, 12:29

in regards to being on jobseekers allowance, i know a few musicians very recently who were forced off jobseekers and made to declare themselves "self-employed" and moved onto a another scheme called "back to work" (which only runs for two years at a reduced pay), and like you are making no money from gigs etc. the government is in the process of cleaning house and its the little guys who will get the sharp end of the stick.(as usual)

Cork guitarist · 17-10-2011, 12:49

The tax people are looking up the entertainment/dancing columns in newspapers, reading posters in pub windows, and of course getting names from publicans who are writing off the cost of their band against tax. If the publican doesn't cooperate, they get the heavy treatment. If we all say we're John Murphy, the contact number is got, and, if there isn't any, and the musician supposedly just drops in now and again, the tax investigating team can see what van the gear comes out of. Or else, how many of us have given our contact details at a gig, to someone who thinks we're great and wants us for some event or other? The alternative is doing just parties or weddings, but be on good terms with whoever is paying you. If you give the tax crowd the 2 fingers, they have the power to come after you, that's human nature.
It's impossible to be in the public eye and not get caught, so at least keep receipts for everything, gear, travel, phone, clothes, internet and website costs and more.

RoverJames · 17-10-2011, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sauce

......... We try to play showcase gigs where possible where no money changes hands whatsoever. .............

If you can prove that you're happy out so

Red Sauce · 18-10-2011, 09:36

Cheers for the feedback lads,

I personally reckon that our name has popped up on some pub's tax returns where they gave us €50 (split 5 ways!) for petrol or something. I've heard that another band from my hometown were audited the same day as us. However they play covers and while I don't know their details I'd imagine they make a few bob fairly regularly.

Is there not a small amount you can earn on top of your jobseekers without having to declare it? Or if you say you were working for one day of the week don't you get the dole for the other four?

I'll be sure to let ye know how this pans out for other people's benefit. It's a right pain in the balls though...

Grolschevik · 18-10-2011, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sauce

Cheers for the feedback lads,

I personally reckon that our name has popped up on some pub's tax returns where they gave us €50 (split 5 ways!) for petrol or something.

You mentioned IMRO earlier. Are you members? Could the Revenue have a list of those registered with them?

14-10-2011, 11:17	#1
Red Sauce Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Midlands Posts: 38 Adverts \| Friends	Amateur band audited. Hey all, I got a letter yesterday asking me to declare all money that I've made from 'performing in musical venues'. My bandmates have all gotten letters too. Thing is, we've never made any money. Most of you on this forum will know how impossible it is to make any money as an original band. If we were in it for the money we'd play covers and go to pubs. We try to play showcase gigs where possible where no money changes hands whatsoever. The (very) odd time a venue might throw ya 30 quid for petrol or lob ya out a few free pints but even that's rare. If we run our own gig we'd maximum get 10-15 heads in which will only occasionally come close to covering the cost of running the show, never mind posters, food, petrol or sometimes accommodation. We obviously have no receipts for any of this, and can barely even remember ourselves. Bottom line is, this is a few lads with an (expensive) hobby, not a business. Why bother? Because we love it. We enjoy packing up our gear on a weekend and tipping off around the country. Have a few pints, meet a few people, play a few tunes, have the craic and feck off home again. It's better than sitting around a crappy midlands town on a Saturday night. Simple as. I know the country's up s*** creek at the minute but really is it even worth their while? We couldn't possibly owe more than 20-30 euro spread over out two and a half years! I can understand them cracking down on bands who actually make a living or a decent chunk of cash on the side but we’re talking pennies here. Now we're looking at maybe being fined for not declaring an income that doesn't exist! I'm also currently on jobseekers (not by choice) which hopefully this whole thing won't completely screw up on me. We're still waiting for IMRO and an accountant to get back to us but does anyone else have experience of this happening to them? Oh, and any young bands reading this, sort out your finances. We never even thought about it before this but apparently it's important. Sorry for the rant, I'm a nice person normally.

14-10-2011, 11:32	#2
Mongarra Registered User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Northwest of Tuskar Rock Posts: 424 Adverts \| Friends	If you have not made any profit from the band then you will have no liability to Income tax or levies. The only problem I see is that you do not have the paperwork to prove it. Between you all you can surely compile a list of payments received from various venues. Individually you may be able to remember when you bought your equipment/gear and how much it cost as you can claim wear and tear on this at a rate of 12.5% per annum. Mileage can be calculated to give an estimate of petrol expenses incurred and an element of wear and tear on whatever cars/vans you use will be allowed. You mention some other expenses in your own post and don't forget to claim light, heat and power for rehearsals in each others homes or hall or wherever. Items such as repairs, replacement (guitar strings/drumsticks and the like) are also deductible as an expense. Also, if you do not have a receipt for everything, a good estimate is usually acceptable. Going to the accountant was a good move. He, no doubt, will advise you on correct procedures. Last edited by Mongarra; 14-10-2011 at 11:33. Reason: spelling error

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14-10-2011, 12:27	#3
mg1 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 66 Adverts \| Friends	I hate ti say i told ye so but have a good read of the thread i started a few weeks ago. By the way an accountand will sort it out in a jiffy and you should not really be in much bother! http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2056395189

14-10-2011, 15:57	#4
Red Sauce Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Midlands Posts: 38 Adverts \| Friends	Cheers for that lads. I have actually hung on to the recipts for most of my gear so maybe I'll try that. From now on I'm hanging on to everything. We're lucky that the accountant is a friend of one of the lads, otherwise we wouldn't be able to afford one. Hopefull we'll get this sorted soon as we're not gigging again until it's all cleared up.

14-10-2011, 16:20	#5
Duke Leonal Felmet Closed Account Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,508 Adverts \| Friends	Can you prove that you have been actively seeking work? That might be an issue.

14-10-2011, 16:39	#6
Red Sauce Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Midlands Posts: 38 Adverts \| Friends	That hopefully won't come in to it. I've been on a FÁS work placement scheme for the past 8 months (not Jobsbridge, the one before that) doing a 9-5 and have stacks of emails sent out to possible employers that I can print off. Playing music is just a hobby I happen to have. I don't make any money from it, but as I've been audited I'm worried it'll screw up my dole (supposed undeclared income etc...). Also, if we have to register our band as a business in order to be tax compliant in the future (regardless of how little money we make) does that make me self employed and again does that screw up my dole? Maybe this is actually the wrong forum to be asking this. If I could just get a proper job none of that would matter but ye all know the way the f***in country is...

14-10-2011, 17:16	#7
the_syco Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Leixlip Posts: 23,007 Adverts \| Friends	I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

15-10-2011, 20:10	#9
jus_tin4 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Broadford, near enfield Posts: 106 Adverts \| Friends	also get receipts from venues sound engineers or any of that sorta stuff! Tax people are audits pubs/venues. thats how your getting caught. they arent picking on you cos they are just been c**** but that they have found you are getting money. they are looking around shops ads or anything of that sort to see whos doing grinds lessons anything that they know where people are earning money on the black market

17-10-2011, 12:29	#11
r.duke Registered User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 32 Adverts \| Friends	in regards to being on jobseekers allowance, i know a few musicians very recently who were forced off jobseekers and made to declare themselves "self-employed" and moved onto a another scheme called "back to work" (which only runs for two years at a reduced pay), and like you are making no money from gigs etc. the government is in the process of cleaning house and its the little guys who will get the sharp end of the stick.(as usual)

17-10-2011, 12:49	#12
Cork guitarist Registered User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 39 Adverts \| Friends	The tax people are looking up the entertainment/dancing columns in newspapers, reading posters in pub windows, and of course getting names from publicans who are writing off the cost of their band against tax. If the publican doesn't cooperate, they get the heavy treatment. If we all say we're John Murphy, the contact number is got, and, if there isn't any, and the musician supposedly just drops in now and again, the tax investigating team can see what van the gear comes out of. Or else, how many of us have given our contact details at a gig, to someone who thinks we're great and wants us for some event or other? The alternative is doing just parties or weddings, but be on good terms with whoever is paying you. If you give the tax crowd the 2 fingers, they have the power to come after you, that's human nature. It's impossible to be in the public eye and not get caught, so at least keep receipts for everything, gear, travel, phone, clothes, internet and website costs and more.

18-10-2011, 09:36	#14
Red Sauce Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Midlands Posts: 38 Adverts \| Friends	Cheers for the feedback lads, I personally reckon that our name has popped up on some pub's tax returns where they gave us €50 (split 5 ways!) for petrol or something. I've heard that another band from my hometown were audited the same day as us. However they play covers and while I don't know their details I'd imagine they make a few bob fairly regularly. Is there not a small amount you can earn on top of your jobseekers without having to declare it? Or if you say you were working for one day of the week don't you get the dole for the other four? I'll be sure to let ye know how this pans out for other people's benefit. It's a right pain in the balls though...