[meglome]

Was just reading about this. Their 4 demands are...

Originally Posted by The Journal

1. that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”
2. that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted
3. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”
4. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.

The usual suspects were commenting on the Journal piece I was reading with the usual bull. My thoughts...

1. Nice idea… would have also been a nice idea if the FF government we repeatedly elected had not given a blanket bank guarantee in 2008. Ship well sailed – Maybe the protesters have a time machine.
2. Great. The problem is we’re spending 20 billion a year more than we take in, in tax. I suppose someone else should pay that for us too. Or perhaps we should immediately cut that money now and screw the poor and needy.
3. We’ve issued, I believe, 7(??) licences out or 100 odd at a discounted rate. We have in our history landed a total of 0 oil and currently the Corrib field has landed 0 gas. Given that oil companies are greedy profit driven animals you’d think they’d be taking our hands off since they are getting such an amazing deal for squillions of oil/gas. I dunno almost seems like the figures we see are not true.
4. We just had an election. Perhaps though people should reflect on who they have been voting for over the years.

Why is it so difficult to have an honest debate in this country? I'm all for protests as such but this is just untrue or crap.

[Scofflaw]

Wouldn't it be nice if they were calling for real reform of the financial sector instead of pie in the sky based on myths and kneejerkery?

ah well,
Scofflaw

[washman3]

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

[PomBear]

Originally Posted by washman3

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.

[washman3]

Originally Posted by PomBear

I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.

Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.

[PomBear]

Originally Posted by washman3

Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.

Afraid not, I could do a few things in Dublin this week but ironically, can't afford the bus fare but have done a fair bit and alot more than the average citizen to oppose the austerity, bank bailouts, IMF/EU/Troika etc. and will continue to do as much as my means allow me.

[Scofflaw]

Originally Posted by washman3

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

[Nate--IRL--]

Originally Posted by washman3

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

"We have to do something!"

"This is something"

"Lets do that!"

Nate

[PomBear]

Originally Posted by Scofflaw

In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Better than effectively nothing at all.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

[Scofflaw]

Originally Posted by PomBear

Better than effectively nothing at all.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

regards,
Scofflaw

[SouperComputer]

Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.

[PomBear]

Originally Posted by SouperComputer

Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.

Many people do have an understanding, I have an understanding, many people on that protest have an understanding, I can vouch for that even if some have views different from my own.

It probably won't get the IMF/EU out but we have to do something, anything. Standing up and saying no is one of the ways of doing that.

If we were all to lie down and do nothing, we'll never know but things might be worse. If things do get worse, this or something else can be the spark the ignites a whole nation to stand up and say no, but the fact that it's there and people are doing their bit says something and will certainly should that spark ever ignite something larger.

[PomBear]

Originally Posted by Scofflaw

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

regards,
Scofflaw

Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.

[SouperComputer]

My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.
I will support (and have supported) protests that are worthwhile, based on a current real-world situation with a view to achieving attainable, measurable goals.
I have not, and will not support a protest "just coz".

You feel the protest is worthwhile for the reasons you outlined, and I dont for the reasons I outlined. I think its fair to say that we'll have to agree to disagree. Let's just leave it at that.

[PomBear]

Originally Posted by SouperComputer

My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.

What would be your idea of something smarter?

Also i'll talk about the demands, no doubt they are huge but they are very respectable views, just because they are out of touch, why not try? there's nothing to lose here and to be honest just because they have really a snowballs chance of actually happening, it's no excuse of not giving it a go because if it's achieved, it will be worth it and incase you haven't noticed, the people of Ireland are not being listened and are being dictated to, we are clutching at straws for something to turn that tide so why not give it a go? To do nothing is to all in all accept this and accept all that comes from it an d for me, I couldn't live with myself not standing up for myself, my community and my country.

Anyways i'll analysis a few of the demands

that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”

Very fair if you look at damage the IMF has done in other countries, it's also about sovereignty, the IMF/ECB won't support us as a nation and while we're repaying them, how are going to rebuild as a nation? Most, if not all, of Ireland's most astute economists, left and right wing, support default by the way, to say that is bordering on idiocy isn't really acceptable. My view is to ignore all these economists is to border on idiocy and to do so, will lead to this country's economic demise.

that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted

It's simply undemocratic and unfair to allow Irish families to be burdened by the poor gambling of effectively private businesses. I don't go into Paddy Power, if I have a losing bet and demand my money back. It's as simple as that and to not insult democracy, I don't need to explain further.

1. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”

Again, the natural resources whatever they be should always be used for the good of the Irish people, it's, again, fair and democratic. No point in getting into a debate on its worth and Shell's dealings further as to not derail the thread and of which threads, are in abundance.

1. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.

Couldn't hurt, democracy is there to ensure the people's will is pursued by it's representation in Government. It hasn't been in terms of the IMF/ECB bailout or the bank bailout, that was wring in my opinion.