[gizmo555]

Originally Posted by monument

No. The acts cover some privite individuals all the time and all privite individuals who publish personal data. The act is very powerful and very wide-ranging.

Fair enough - I was thinking along the lines that posting a picture on boards.ie is a "recreational purpose" but I suppose it amounts to publication too.

[Aard]

Originally Posted by gizmo555

Yes you can:

Under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts, you also have a right to get a copy of your personal information. This applies to all types of information -for example, written details about you held electronically or on paper, photographs and CCTV images.

The maximum fee which can be charged is €6.35.

Never knew that! Could come in handy some day.

[languagenerd]

Stories like this annoy me, because I've seen (on several occasions) ticket inspectors turn a blind eye to people with no tickets.

Eg. A couple of weeks ago, a group of teenage girls in school uniforms (who had spent the previous 20min shouting and jumping on seats) told the inspectors "Ah I just didn't buy one today". One of them gave an inspector a ticket she'd picked off the floor and he punched the hole in it - then her friend yelled "That's not even hers!", he looked at it, pocketed it and walked away laughing.

Also recently, saw four guys in tracksuits trying to get away with one pass between them. The inspectors asked them where they were getting off and suggested they walk as "it's a lovely day out lads!". They got off at the next stop, no fine, nothing.

Why are they so lenient with the skangers and scumbags, while throwing fines at everyone else?!

The most annoyed I've been on the Luas was when I saw an older man (about 60) get fined because he'd made a genuine mistake - he was only in Dublin overnight and bought a return ticket, not knowing the return had to be made the same day. Why was he fined, while the teenagers who were disturbing everyone else were allowed continue on their way?!

I know the OP should have bought a ticket home, but it annoys me that people are charged for genuine mistakes or machine faults when people who have a blatant disregard for the system get off scott free!

/rant

[Victor]

10% of people will always pay their way. Even if the ticket machien has blown away in a hurricane, they won't get on the tram without paying.

5% will do their damndest to never pay there way.

Everybody else in between will take a calculated risk, e.g. you are running late for job interview and the tram is about to go? Well either (a) get on the tram and pay the €45 (b) pay your €2, wait for the next tram, but risk being too late or (c) see if you can get a taxi and pay €20. Other times it will be "Ah, I've loads of time and there another tram in a few minutes anyway".

The system depends on the ~95% of people paying. It costs X in enforcement costs (CSOs, STT, prosecution costs) to make 95% pay. It might take 5X to make 99% pay. It might take 10X to make 99.9% pay.

The enforcement costs of 9X (10X-1X) is substantially larger than the extra income from the extra 4.9% of people paying.

Originally Posted by languagenerd

Why are they so lenient with the skangers and scumbags, while throwing fines at everyone else?!

Two wrongs do not make a right. Imagine my wife cheats on me and has sex with my best friend. Would you also insist that you should be able to have sex with my wife (or best friend, whichever your choice) and have a "get out of jail free" card? If they got away with it, why can't I?

[languagenerd]

Originally Posted by Victor

Two wrongs do not make a right. Imagine my wife cheats on me and has sex with my best friend. Would you also insist that you should be able to have sex with my wife (or best friend, whichever your choice) and have a "get out of jail free" card? If they got away with it, why can't I?

No, that's not quite what I meant. If you decided not to pay for a ticket, then they should give you the fine straight away and you'd deserve it. But in the case of genuine errors (eg. the man in my above post who'd bought a return ticket but was actually returning the next day), I think they should be a bit more understanding/lenient. It just seems very unfair that they can laugh it off when certain people tell them nonchalantly that they haven't got a ticket yet they have no qualms about charging someone else.

[Losty Dublin]

Originally Posted by languagenerd

No, that's not quite what I meant. If you decided not to pay for a ticket, then they should give you the fine straight away and you'd deserve it. But in the case of genuine errors (eg. the man in my above post who'd bought a return ticket but was actually returning the next day), I think they should be a bit more understanding/lenient. It just seems very unfair that they can laugh it off when certain people tell them nonchalantly that they haven't got a ticket yet they have no qualms about charging someone else.

I see the essence of what you are saying but in all honesty, is there any point in ticketing the junkies? Jokes aside, many of these guys already have dozens of fines and convictions to their names and there is no hope of getting 45 cent from them, let alone €45 or a conviction.

In relation to the guy fined for returning on the ticket the day after he bought it, Luas tickets specify when they are valid for use. At some stage he should have seen or checked his ticket between buying and using it.

[AlekSmart]

Originally Posted by Losty Dublin

I see the essence of what you are saying but in all honesty, is there any point in ticketing the junkies? Jokes aside, many of these guys already have dozens of fines and convictions to their names and there is no hope of getting 45 cent from them, let alone €45 or a conviction.

Oh most definitely,YES !

There has to be some uniformity of purpose shown by the Operators here across the board,even if only to display its own self-regard for the service offered.

From my own observations going back nearly 20 years,I have rarely come across genuine poverty,of the sort meriting immediate attention or deserving of my pity.

When I have encountered it,the persons suffering it have usually been the furthest from the "Troublemaker" generalizartion we so often see and hear about....the genuine poverty afflicted person will often go to extreme lengths to conceal it.

What I see during my working day,and on services such as LUAS,is an ever expanding, concerted and generally conniving sub-cultural group who,whilst apparently without money for Transport Fares,have sufficient funds to provide for mobile telephony,tobacco and jewellery requirements as well as an ever present supply of narcotics..

At it's simplest I don't give a flying flúich what they inject,drink or rub into their beings,but I will not accept that they can simply stroll past me and assume that their demeanour allows them carte-blanche to travel for free.

Each and every day I get a well rehearsed routine of excuses and other stories designed to improve my knowledge of how hard times are.

However,each day the reality of their convictions becomes evident when I simply refuse to accept a scrunched up-barely legible Free Travel pass issued to a female and shown to me by a young man..these refusals or even the scrutiny of such passes often prompting a bout of cursing or similar.

Providing services for a steadily increasing number of those who simply refuse to pay for them and often display scant regard for them is a recipe for disaster !

[languagenerd]

Originally Posted by Losty Dublin

I see the essence of what you are saying but in all honesty, is there any point in ticketing the junkies? Jokes aside, many of these guys already have dozens of fines and convictions to their names and there is no hope of getting 45 cent from them, let alone €45 or a conviction.

In relation to the guy fined for returning on the ticket the day after he bought it, Luas tickets specify when they are valid for use. At some stage he should have seen or checked his ticket between buying and using it.

No, probably not, but they should at least issue the standard fare notice. If they keep ignoring them, they'll keep doing it. Even if the junkies/skangers aren't gonna pay up, anyone with more than one notice could at least be (repeatedly) thrown off the trams by any security guards that see them.

Ah I know, but he was only in Dublin overnight and travelling from Heuston to somewhere in Red 3. He probably just hit "return" on the machine cause he knew he'd be making two journeys and put the ticket straight into his wallet. Does it say on the machine that returns are day-only?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by monument

OP

Pay the fine or if you really don't want to and are willing to take another risk...

Use Data Protection Act to ask for two things:

• The CCTV footage, as already suggested by others.
  
• The ticket machine records for the one you used at the exact time you used or as close as you get. This is personal information under the act as it can be such when extra information is used (CCTV showing you use the machine, or just even you giving the date and time).

The act can be used regardless of what proceedings are planned or are on going.

I would guess that if the OP is close to "going to court date" then probably 28 days has elapsed from the original event.

[Keith186]

OP, any update on this unjust fine?

Did you get it waived?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Keith186

OP, any update on this unjust fine?

Did you get it waived?

The OP was fined fairly and squarely on the day. He travelled knowingly without a ticket.

It's up to him to provide mitigating evidence to persuade Veoila to waive the fine.

[AlekSmart]

Originally Posted by Keith186

OP, any update on this unjust fine?

Did you get it waived?

Hmmmm,I've very rarely came across anybody prepared to describe any fine they've recieved as "just"...but I suppose there's a first time for everything ?

[n97 mini]

Originally Posted by AlekSmart

Hmmmm,I've very rarely came across anybody prepared to describe any fine they've recieved as "just"...but I suppose there's a first time for everything ?

Keith186 is referring to a fine someone else received.

If they were all justified Veolia would have a 100% success rate in court. Which they do not.

[AlekSmart]

Originally Posted by n97 mini

Keith186 is referring to a fine someone else received.
If they were all justified Veolia would have a 100% success rate in court. Which they do not.

Yup,he was indeed,and Sean29 did'nt appear to find it "just" either,hence his OP....

However as you suggest the only real decider on the Justification issue now,is to head Courtwards......That'll sort it all out !