[robd]

Originally Posted by Cool Mo D

I think it's definitely time to build a big bus station under Hawkins House, as mentioned in another thread - would link the DART, Luas BXD, and all city centre on-street bus termini could be moved there. Also, all cross-city buses, which would not go into the bus station, should stop outside a train or Luas stop somewhere along their route.

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by monument

No, I don't need to accept it and it's not a part of city life in most of the cities that I've been in. It seems to be more of a sign of an inefficient bus service that anything.

Overall efficient use of street space comes before Dublin Bus' needs. Parking buses on the street next to the city's main street is not efficient use of street space.




Parked buses make it far worse and hinder any attempts at improvements.




I have a definite bias against bus? Me? The person who in a recent thread put forward the idea of having highly segregated BRT in the city?

Do I have a definite bias over high quality, high capacity, high frequency and highly reliably public transport which pays for its operating costs over lower capacity and less attractive transport? Yes, I do.

Try attacking the post rather than the poster, thanks.




Finer details can be worked out -- if everybody posting here about transport and other things always had to have such detail there'd be little discussion. The promoters of poor bus services always say that one of the advantages of buses is that they can be moved easily -- so it should not be too much of a problem?

And the most efficient way for Dublin Bus to operate its service is not always what is best for the city, never mind what is best for transport in the city.




Again, have a search for one of my recent posts on BRT (bus rapid transit).

Dart Underground would see Dart and Commuter capacity go up to 100m. Dublin Bus is 119m and falling, is it?




The question was on km, not operating km. Can you answer how many km does Dublin Bus routes service?

You're not referring to them because it does not suit your simplistic argument that public transport parking should be able to take over prime city centre space.

Well you obviously haven't looked very hard!

London, Barcelona and Sydney are three examples I can immediately think of where there are city centre bus stands, generally on side streets where buses layover between journeys. It is a basic element of any city bus service in cities where no public transport interchange station is not provided.

As for being parked "on the street next to the city's main street" - what difference does that make? Marlborough Street is hardly a major thoroughfare - in fact it is a pretty dingy backstreet surrounded by large office blocks. Not having buses there is not going to change that.

Moving the buses away from there is not a "finer detail". It is a major point, because lengthening the route means requiring a higher peak vehicle requirement (PVR) to maintain the existing service levels - that is a fundamental issue because of resource availablity.

And I don't have the details of how many km there are in the Dublin Bus network. I have no access to that information. Why don't you ask Dublin Bus?

Given that IE carried 38.2m passenger journeys in 2010 over the entire network, I think that any concept of them carrying 100m on DART/Suburban alone is pie in the sky.

[Ben D Bus]

Originally Posted by cgcsb

In fact the opposite is true, the majority of drivers ignore bus gate.

That's not really correct in fairness. I know some drivers do ignore the gate, but the number of private cars I see on College Green in the evening peak is tiny. They're annoying, but relatively insignificant.

Regarding the bridge, one of the problems on OCB is buses turning right from Bachelors Walk. Causes a lot of problems with buses getting from their stops on BW, into the correct lane, then getting onto the bridge. And there are a lot of routes do this.

It might be very helpful to traffic flow if these routes cross onto Eden Quay and take the new bridge to Hawkins St and onto College Green?

[monument]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

Well you obviously haven't looked very hard!

London, Barcelona and Sydney are three examples I can immediately think of where there are city centre bus stands, generally on side streets where buses layover between journeys. It is a basic element of any city bus service in cities where no public transport interchange station is not provided.

I don't remember saying there were no buses parked up on any streets in any cities -- I disagreed with your claim that it is a "fact of life in most cities".

It is simply not a fact of life in most cities. When somebody says anything is "a fact of life", there's usually a different way.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

As for being parked "on the street next to the city's main street" - what difference does that make? Marlborough Street is hardly a major thoroughfare - in fact it is a pretty dingy backstreet surrounded by large office blocks. Not having buses there is not going to change that.

It is planned to be a thoroughfare for Luas.

And, yes, not having buses there will change the street -- the buses or more so the amount of buses are part of the problem of the street. The parked buses take up a huge part of the street, make it seem like a smaller space, more closed in space and blocks out the light the street has.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

Moving the buses away from there is not a "finer detail". It is a major point, because lengthening the route means requiring a higher peak vehicle requirement (PVR) to maintain the existing service levels - that is a fundamental issue because of resource availablity.

A finer detail can be a major point, but it can still be worked out.

As many low frequency bus routes as there is now have no place in the city centre in the future.

For example, half decent BRT on the Malahide Road corridor would get rid of most or all of those buses which park there. I believe Dublin Bus' contract is up in 2014, while construction of BXD only gets going in 2015.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

And I don't have the details of how many km there are in the Dublin Bus network. I have no access to that information. Why don't you ask Dublin Bus?

Look at it this way, the QBN office says there's about 200kms QBCs and Dublin Bus serves far more than just QBCs.

Luas has under 37km. If Luas had even 200km of lines it would be carrying far more than Dublin Bus does and it would likely be doing so with an operating profit.

The point is that not all public transport is equal.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

Given that IE carried 38.2m passenger journeys in 2010 over the entire network, I think that any concept of them carrying 100m on DART/Suburban alone is pie in the sky.

You can think "pie in the sky" all you want but that is the capacity they should have if or when the stalled works on Dart Underground project is resumed.

With a benefit/cost ratio of 2.4 the project has a far greater chance of been resumed in the future than other large projects (ie metro). And with without the Dart Underground tunnel the Kildare line four tracking will never be used right, the bottlenecks around the loop line will remain and current lines will remain underused compared to their potential.

Their entire Intercity network would be insignificant compared to the Dart and Commuter network post the stalled Dart project.

[cgcsb]

Originally Posted by Ben D Bus

That's not really correct in fairness. I know some drivers do ignore the gate, but the number of private cars I see on College Green in the evening peak is tiny. They're annoying, but relatively insignificant.

I see it a lot and there's very little enforcement, maybe a camera system should be put in place and drivers sent a fine through the post for doing so.

I also see a lot of bad driving in general in Dublin, drivers casually sale through red lights, don't indicate and change lanes suddenly, especially taxis.

Originally Posted by Ben D Bus

Regarding the bridge, one of the problems on OCB is buses turning right from Bachelors Walk. Causes a lot of problems with buses getting from their stops on BW, into the correct lane, then getting onto the bridge. And there are a lot of routes do this.

It might be very helpful to traffic flow if these routes cross onto Eden Quay and take the new bridge to Hawkins St and onto College Green?

agreed, since network direct, the blanch area buses 39,37,70 etc. use O'Connell Bridge, where as they used to use Gratten

[lxflyer]

Originally Posted by monument

I don't remember saying there were no buses parked up on any streets in any cities -- I disagreed with your claim that it is a "fact of life in most cities".

It is simply not a fact of life in most cities. When somebody says anything is "a fact of life", there's usually a different way.

For goodness sakes now you are dealing in semantics - you effectively said it did not happen elsewhere - I am saying it does.

Originally Posted by monument

It is planned to be a thoroughfare for Luas.

And, yes, not having buses there will change the street -- the buses or more so the amount of buses are part of the problem of the street. The parked buses take up a huge part of the street, make it seem like a smaller space, more closed in space and blocks out the light the street has.

I think you are really stretching things here - it is not an attractive street full stop.

Originally Posted by monument

A finer detail can be a major point, but it can still be worked out.

As many low frequency bus routes as there is now have no place in the city centre in the future.

For example, half decent BRT on the Malahide Road corridor would get rid of most or all of those buses which park there. I believe Dublin Bus' contract is up in 2014, while construction of BXD only gets going in 2015.

Indeed it can - but your original post made no practical suggestion of how it could be delivered without affecting PVR. And you have to take those sort of things into account. You were frankly dismissive of DB and put it down to them "choosing" to terminate there, without any knowledge of how urban bus services operate in my opinion.

Also - the high frequency Malahide Road routes no longer terminate there, but hey don't let that stop you!

Originally Posted by monument

Look at it this way, the QBN office says there's about 200kms QBCs and Dublin Bus serves far more than just QBCs.

Luas has under 37km. If Luas had even 200km of lines it would be carrying far more than Dublin Bus does and it would likely be doing so with an operating profit.

The point is that not all public transport is equal.

I think that is a very subjective post - LUAS is never going to have 200km. I'd suggest the DB network is far in excess of that given there are many routes off QBCs. Therefore the whole comparison is ludicrous. I suspect that you would find LUAS would not be making an operational profit - in fact this year it's quite possible they will make a loss.

Originally Posted by monument

You can think "pie in the sky" all you want but that is the capacity they should have if or when the stalled works on Dart Underground project is resumed.

With a benefit/cost ratio of 2.4 the project has a far greater chance of been resumed in the future than other large projects (ie metro). And with without the Dart Underground tunnel the Kildare line four tracking will never be used right, the bottlenecks around the loop line will remain and current lines will remain underused compared to their potential.

Their entire Intercity network would be insignificant compared to the Dart and Commuter network post the stalled Dart project.

Capacity and reality are two completely different things. There is not a chance in my view that IE will ever carry anything close to 100m passengers.

At the end of the day I am saying that you need to think things through and suggest practical alternatives if these schemes are to happen. Not doing so leaves gaping holes in your argument.

[monument]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

For goodness sakes now you are dealing in semantics - you effectively said it did not happen elsewhere - I am saying it does.

It's not semantics, and you're now putting words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

I think you are really stretching things here - it is not an attractive street full stop.

Not at all, the parked buses are part of the problem and makes the street harder to be made attractive. It makes the street more cramped, less open, and darker.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

Indeed it can - but your original post made no practical suggestion of how it could be delivered without affecting PVR. And you have to take those sort of things into account. You were frankly dismissive of DB and put it down to them "choosing" to terminate there, without any knowledge of how urban bus services operate in my opinion.

Also - the high frequency Malahide Road routes no longer terminate there, but hey don't let that stop you!

Yes, bus services are chosen and planned, they did choice to park buses there because it suits them to do so. You can try to claim otherwise but what suits Dublin Bus is not what is always the best thing for the city or even transport in the city.

Even in terms of bus transport, Dublin Bus is not what the city needs.

And you continue to think posters here have to write each post to the standard of a railway order or something along those lines. It's a discussion board, not choosing a submission form for An Bord Pleanala for fast tracking planning permission.

Even if we're talking about moving around the current routes that use the streets or even moving where they park -- it should not be a huge deal, the flexibility of buses is supposed to be one of their strong points.

Originally Posted by lxflyer

I think that is a very subjective post - LUAS is never going to have 200km. I'd suggest the DB network is far in excess of that given there are many routes off QBCs. Therefore the whole comparison is ludicrous. I suspect that you would find LUAS would not be making an operational profit - in fact this year it's quite possible they will make a loss.

You're missing the wider point: Luas is more important because it carries more people per km its routes take up. In terms of the amount of passengers carried, the fact that the DB network is far in excess of 200km is worse, not better.

Why do you not think that a larger Luas network travelling around the same kind of areas would make a loss?

Why do you think Luas will make a loss this year?

Originally Posted by lxflyer

Capacity and reality are two completely different things. There is not a chance in my view that IE will ever carry anything close to 100m passengers.

Why isn't there a change of that happening?

[lxflyer]

I'm not expecting an EIS but I would expect you to come up with a practical alternative rather than somewhat sweeping statements.

As to LUAS making an operating loss:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/down...l-Dec-2011.pdf

The RPA has been experiencing deficits between Luas revenue and operating costs and is forecast to have an operating deficit, including asset refurbishment costs, in 2011 and a further deficit which is expected to be higher in 2012. This has resulted in them having to deplete their accumulated cash reserve which was intended for necessary maintenance work.

[robd]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

As to LUAS making an operating loss:

True unfortunately. The extensions have put them into the red in operating terms. There's a lesson to be learned there in terms of building tram (or heavy rail) lines in low population density out lying areas.

Other than that, could the 2 of you (lxflyer and monument) please stop bickering about bus stops. It's somewhat of a side argument.

[monument]

Originally Posted by lxflyer

I'm not expecting an EIS but I would expect you to come up with a practical alternative rather than somewhat sweeping statements.

The practical alternative is to move the buses. The detail and decision making behind the choices of how to move them is EIS level and even beyond EIS level with discussion between all parties.

In any case, asking me or anybody else here to explain how we're going to move the parked buses seems strange when the RPA already plans on having a Luas stop where the buses park:


North >

Originally Posted by lxflyer

As to LUAS making an operating loss:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/down...l-Dec-2011.pdf

Thanks, I had not seen that.

[monument]

Originally Posted by robd

True unfortunately. The extensions have put them into the red in operating terms. There's a lesson to be learned there in terms of building tram (or heavy rail) lines in low population density out lying areas.

Other than that, could the 2 of you (lxflyer and monument) please stop bickering about bus stops. It's somewhat of a side argument.

Back on topic:

The Luas BXD drawings seem to suggest that there is room for Luas tracks going both ways on Marlborough Street (and from College Green to Marlborough Street). The only notable problem on the ground seems to be the (currently very low quality) building on the corner of Parnell Street and Marlborough Street.

• Grafton Street to Eden Quay(05_BXD_RO_29_A-B).pdf (0.67MB)
• Eden Quay to Cathal Brugha Street(06_BXD_RO_29_B-C).pdf (0.82MB)
• Cathal Brugha Street to Dominick Street Lower(07_BXD_RO_29_C-D).pdf (0.62MB)

Fitting the set of tracks down the street isn't a huge issue.

The question is: Is more disruption at and post construction from College Green to Parnell Street via Marlborough better or worse than disruption on O'Connell Street?

And will the RPA do without their loop?

[dublinman1990]

Quote from Ixflyer

London, Barcelona and Sydney are three examples I can immediately think of where there are city centre bus stands, generally on side streets where buses layover between journeys. It is a basic element of any city bus service in cities where no public transport interchange station is not provided.

Going off topic - London's Victoria Station has a wide range of bus, rail and tube services to offer there, including an air terminal , for passengers travelling by train to Gatwick Airport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Victoria_station

Imagine if you had Connolly or Heuston like that. We wouldn't know ourselves.

[trluk]

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I can't BELIEVE we're making the spacing mistake for the second time in less than 10 years @_@

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by robd

True unfortunately. The extensions have put them into the red in operating terms. There's a lesson to be learned there in terms of building tram (or heavy rail) lines in low population density out lying areas

What a bunch of tosh. Developer-contribution is the saving of the railways. Hansfield is thriving and sure Crusheen will be the crown jewel of Irish Rail.

[robd]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

What a bunch of tosh. Developer-contribution is the saving of the railways. Hansfield is thriving and sure Crusheen will be the crown jewel of Irish Rail.

What the heck are you talking about? What has Crusheen got to do with operating of the Luas?

The cost of operating the Luas in less dense areas (Saggart and Bridge Glen) has pushed Veolia into the red (loss making). Thus RPA have increased the fares to push Veolia back into the black (profit making).

Developer contributions pay for construction of, not the running of a service.

Also, I was giving justification for fare increase not criticizing it.