[paperclip2]

It looks like the new college is taking a particular interpretation of the 5 year regulations. Its a knotty problem but you could appeal it maybe. I'm going to do a bit of digging on the application of this 5 year rule legislation. I'll post whatever I turn up, if anything.

[dchris]

Cheers. I really appreciate your help. No one seems to have responsibility for making a decision. Any info I could find on the "5 year rule" was just a one liner with no footnotes. I hope college won't be as difficult as the application process!

[Maldesu]

I went back to uni after being out for 5 years. I had completed a year of a course but not the second year. When I got my place I was listed as having to pay all the fees. I emailed the fees office and told them I hadn't completed a course and was out for 5 years. They told me my previous college had me listed as having completed a course and I needed a document from them saying I hadn't finished.

I went to the previous college, told them to type up a letter saying I'd not finished and sent it to the Uni's fee office. About 2 days later I was listed as getting free fees.

G'Luck

[paperclip2]

Originally Posted by dchris

Cheers. I really appreciate your help. No one seems to have responsibility for making a decision. Any info I could find on the "5 year rule" was just a one liner with no footnotes. I hope college won't be as difficult as the application process!

Right dchris I had a chat with the Dept and this is what they told me.

If you have 5 clear years from the time you FORMALLY left the college and as long as you received NO certification /qualification whatsoever from your original course you ARE eligible for free fees for your new course.

So you need to clarify that you:

• Formally left the college. i.e did you send a letter or speak directly to anyone in the college to say that you were officially leaving your course?
  
• Have you a full five clear years from the time the college documented that you had formally left?
  
• That you did not receive any form of certification or qualification for the year that you spent in college.

If you fulfill these conditions the college can claim back your first year fees from the Dept of Education so there is no requirement that you should pay first year fees.

The dept said that you might be dealing with someone who doesn't understand the 5 year rule fully or as in the case of Maldesu that your original college didn't take you off their books. You will probably need to contact your original college for a letter stating when you actually left the course.

Hope this helps.

[dchris]

Thanks for this Paperclip! Can you tell me who you spoke to in the Department? Anyone I speak to won't give me a definitive answer, I even rang them today. Maybe I am ringing the wrong department. DES Student Support- Fees Section??



I have gone back to the college and have explained all this and they said they will look into it and get back to me. However they said that the clause they are talking about states that

"Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level.

Students who have previously pursued, but not completed a third level programme will not be eligible for free tuition fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first programme of study."

Its is so frustrating, as now I believe I am eligible, but cannot seem to convince the college that I am.. The college didn't take kindly to me explaining that I interpret the rules differently to them..But at the end of the day , they aren't the ones paying for it.. Where do I go from here, the guy I spoke to in the college basically spoke over me when I tried to suggest that I am eligible under the rules. He said " No , no , no, you are not, we should know" I had to keep my cool, as there is a chance I will have to do an interview, and it would be my luck that this git would be on the interview panel!

I think I am going to apply for the course regardless through the CAO and direct to the college, and if i get offered a place and they say I am eligible for fees, I will kick up a fuss then and try to convince them.. As I am going out of my mind and have my heart set on going back to college. I was convinced I was eligible as I had researched everything a year ago, I even have bought books and began reading just to get back in the swing of things..

Thanks for doing so much to help Paperclip, restored my faith in humanity!


D

[mango salsa]

How do you interpret it differently to the college? - are the courses the same level?

[dchris]

The Department say that -
"Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level."
(Which is my scenario)

But the college say :
"Students who have previously pursued, but not completed a third level programme will not be eligible for free tuition fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first programme of study."

So basically the college are not taking into account the 5 year rule and applying the above rule to each scenario first. In that instance the only time the 5 year rule would be applied is if a student left college 5 years ago , whilst in 1st year, if that was the case I would imagine they would have worded it like that, but they haven't.

I interpret that because the 2 rules above exist this rule :
"Students who have previously pursued, but not completed a third level programme will not be eligible for free tuition fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first programme of study."

is for those who are not eligible for the 5 year rule.

and that the following applies for those who are eligible:

"Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level."

The department seems to agree, but the college does not..

[mango salsa]

My understanding is that the Dept set the rules for fees and the colleges then interpret them

My reading of it would be that you would be entitled to free fees as a second chance student

A lot of colleges/unis have clear published policies on this

TCD - 2e/f
http://www.tcd.ie/Treasurers_Office/...s_freefees.php
UCD - 2A
http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminserv...ee_tuition.htm
NUIG - d/e
http://www.nuigalway.ie/student_fees...titlement.html
DCU - 7
http://www.spd.dcu.ie/main/administr...Initiative.pdf
UL - Exceptions
http://www2.ul.ie/pdf/496200382.pdf

What college are you hoping to attend?

Maybe you should contact either the Student Union Education officer in the college you want to attend or the USI Education officer.

[dchris]

Hi Mango Salsa,

This is exactly the problem I am having.

Basically in the rules, for example the TCD ones you posted a link to

They state on Rule D that
Students who have previously pursued but not completed a course which has not attracted exchequer funding may be deemed eligible for free fees subject to compliance with the other conditions of the free fees initiative.


Students who have pursued a course of third level study which has attracted exchequer funding (e.g. fees, maintenance, tax relief, subsidy towards course cost) and have not secured a terminal qualification and subsequently resume third level studies are not eligible for free fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first course of study. Part-time and evening students are included in this category.

However rule F states that :

(f) Tuition fees will be paid in respect of students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level.

What I am experiencing is that the college I am applying to is implementing both rules at the same time, thus coming up with the conclusion that I am not eligible for fees as despite being out of college for 5 years, because I have completed a portion or the course, I am eligible to pay for this portion of any new course I do.

I have no doubt that the college is interpreting the rules wrongly, but trying to convince them they have made a mistake is going to be the issue as it is the Admission's officer of the Uni that has said this to me..

If you don't mind, I won't say the name of the Uni at this point as I will have to sit an interview. Plus I wouldn't like to identify the Admissions Officer on here

[Maldesu]

Rule D applies to those who have :

Students who have pursued a course of third level study which has attracted exchequer funding (e.g. fees, maintenance, tax relief, subsidy towards course cost) and have not secured a terminal qualification and subsequently resume third level studies are not eligible for free fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first course of study. Part-time and evening students are included in this category.

You are not subsequently resuming. You have waited the five years.
Don't suppose you can talk to someone in the Fees department?

[dchris]

Are you interpreting "subsequently resume" to mean following immediately afterwards? I just read this as any-time afterwards..

I have rang the fees office who forwarded me to admissions and now admissions are liaising with the fees office. Basically Admissions say that Rule D applies firstly, and that Rule F only applies once other proceeding rules are adhered. But they need The Fees office to confirm.. I have tried telling them what the department have said, but they are making me feel like an idiot when I try to explain it. One person I spoke with even sniggered at me!
Furthermore, earlier in the year I spoke to the Admissions Officer and Mature Student Officer in St.Patricks College as I had intended to apply there too, and because they said I was not eligible as a "Second Chance" student I didn't apply for the course. Now , it seems, I am eligible, yet colleges are telling people they are not. I am sure there must be people out there who wanted to apply but through mis-information from the colleges think they are not eligible. As centres of academic excellence, you would think they would get their facts right

[mango salsa]

It seems very clear to me that you would be regarded as a 2nd chance student because of the 5 year break - I think this definitely something you can appeal - maybe give the education officer in USI a call

[dchris]

Brilliant! I just emailed the Students Union Education officer ,Aengus Ó Maoláin , and got an automatic reply saying he is away until the 1st of May, which just happens to be the closing date for applications! I will call them tomorrow and try find someone else that might help , thanks!

[Maldesu]

Originally Posted by dchris

Are you interpreting "subsequently resume" to mean following immediately afterwards? I just read this as any-time afterwards..

Yeah, since they distinguish the 5 year gap as something separate.

Originally Posted by dchris

I have rang the fees office who forwarded me to admissions and now admissions are liaising with the fees office. Basically Admissions say that Rule D applies firstly, and that Rule F only applies once other proceeding rules are adhered. But they need The Fees office to confirm.. I have tried telling them what the department have said, but they are making me feel like an idiot when I try to explain it. One person I spoke with even sniggered at me!

Sure this is a place you want to apply to? Sounds like they need some education themselves. Hope the people as USI can give you some info, but it does sound like the college is taking the piss.

Just looked at St. Pats and they follow the criteria of DCU. I think you've been getting stuck with people who don't have a clue.

[mango salsa]

Originally Posted by Maldesu

Yeah, since they distinguish the 5 year gap as something separate.



Sure this is a place you want to apply to? Sounds like they need some education themselves. Hope the people as USI can give you some info, but it does sound like the college is taking the piss.

Just looked at St. Pats and they follow the criteria of DCU. I think you've been getting stuck with people who don't have a clue.

I wouldn't personally interpret "resuming" that way

I've been involved in student politics in 3 different colleges in Ireland - bureaucracy and incompetence of some people in some administrative offices happens a fair bit - In my view it's not at all unique to any college - It just means to get past it you need doggedness and determination to challenge it.