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29-07-2011, 12:13   #166
bastados
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2010 is when the slave class replaced the working class...no money and a very dried up sense of humour...we are donkeys now.
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29-07-2011, 12:50   #167
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Unemployment will take many, many years to come down fully, we can't wait that long to sort out the deficit unfortunately. The Government doesn't have any choice but to cut spending and raise taxes.
So let them raise taxes.

What is this obsesstion they have with keeping progressive personal taxes lower and introducing regressive indirect taxes?

I am a middle earning private sector worker who has gotten progressively better off as a result of these budgets. 2% more on my higher PAYE band is fair and affordable, and will make a serious dent on the defecit.

Instead I have to pay thousands in property tax on an apartment I paid stamp duty on and water charges that I already pay in my management fees.
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29-07-2011, 12:51   #168
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OK, so you are working on the assumption that there would be no negative consequences to the state refusing to pay its debts, albeit unsecured debts, at a time when our credit rating is already in the crapper.

I don't know, that's why I asked.

What you are saying is, unsecured investments are actually secured investments, we're just pretending they are not. It would appear "caveat emptor" applies to everybody except these bondholders and I'd like a definitive answer as to why that should be the case.
If nothing else, it seems to be a dangerous precedent to set.
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29-07-2011, 13:26   #169
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What you are saying is, unsecured investments are actually secured investments, we're just pretending they are not.
No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we could default on our unsecured debts, but that doesn't mean we should.

If I have a mortgage secured on my house, but a personal loan without security, do you think I can just decide not to pay off the personal loan with zero consequences? What do you suppose it would do to my credit rating?
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29-07-2011, 13:29   #170
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As another someone with 2 kids, I sympathise. but I'm not gonna get thrown out of my house for an extra €9 a month
will you keep saying its just 9 euro,when they raise it every year?



I agree with the OP


I'm not paying
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29-07-2011, 13:33   #171
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No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we could default on our unsecured debts, but that doesn't mean we should.

If I have a mortgage secured on my house, but a personal loan without security, do you think I can just decide not to pay off the personal loan with zero consequences? What do you suppose it would do to my credit rating?
Thats a bad analogy. What happens if they are your neighbours unsecured loans and you got cajoled into taking them on under false pretences?
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29-07-2011, 13:36   #172
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FOR SALE:

Large island farm , containing 4.5 million highly productive, blinkered sheep .
all good tempered and easly pliable.

contact E.Kenny
Dublin
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29-07-2011, 13:41   #173
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Thats a bad analogy. What happens if they are your neighbours unsecured loans and you got cajoled into taking them on under false pretences?
OK - so you believe that we can default on the unsecured bondholders without negative consequences?
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29-07-2011, 13:46   #174
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This is one thing the right and left can agree on. Boycott this tax.
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29-07-2011, 13:47   #175
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OK - so you believe that we can default on the unsecured bondholders without negative consequences?
No, not after the treasonous decision to socialise private losses.

But I do believe that the consequences of 'burning' bondholders will be considerably less traumatic than continuing on the current course.
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29-07-2011, 14:52   #176
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No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we could default on our unsecured debts, but that doesn't mean we should.

If I have a mortgage secured on my house, but a personal loan without security, do you think I can just decide not to pay off the personal loan with zero consequences? What do you suppose it would do to my credit rating?

Surely the institution or person advancing an unsecured would be aware, by the very terminology, there is a risk that all or some of the loan might not be repaid. I'd imagine unsecured loans would attract a higher premium too.
It just appears to me that goalposts can be shifted by one side and not the other. It's easy for our politicians to commit money which is not theirs. I heard one Minister whining that they had already taken a 20% pay cut, not such a big deal when you are paying yourself 200% of the going rate for the job, plus expenses every time you wipe your arse.
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29-07-2011, 15:13   #177
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Just read through most of the posts on this thread, for the very small few that seem happy to pay a property tax, what you don,t realize if you consent to pay anything in the form on property you already own whether it be an apartment or house, you are really consenting to recognize you re no longer the true landlord of your own property and that the goverment and local council are the landlord over your property now, which sets a dangerous precedent, if we all were to accept a property tax when it goes up every year, for those whose income who couldn,t afford the increases, the local council would have power to evict someone from their own property, that,s if you actually want to recognize the local council as your landlord, do you?

Last edited by !3theraven; 29-07-2011 at 15:18.
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29-07-2011, 15:18   #178
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Just read through most of the posts on this thread, for the very small few that seem happy to pay a property tax, what you don,t realize if you consent to pay anything in the form on property you already own whether it be an apartment or house, you are really consenting to recognize you re no longer the true landlord of your own property and that the goverment and local council and the landlord over your property now, which sets a dangerous precedent, if we all were to accept a property tax when it goes up every year, for those whose income who couldn,t afford the increases, the local council would have power to evict someone from their own property, that,s if you actually want to recognize the local council as your landlord, do you?
So, if you own a car and pay your car tax, the government really own your car? And presumably they own your TV if you pay your TV license? Do they also own your income if you pay income tax?
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29-07-2011, 15:33   #179
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So, if you own a car and pay your car tax, the government really own your car? And presumably they own your TV if you pay your TV license? Do they also own your income if you pay income tax?

Motor tax goes towards the upkeep of roads,if I don,t pay it, the goverment don,t have the power to take away my car, tv licence I don,t pay it, don,t use tv, watch everything on my pc,You pay motor tax to be legally allowed to use the car on the public roads. You can have a hundred cars and not pay a cent in motor tax if you do not use them on the public road.
Your motor tax/property tax comparison fails.

but back to this property tax and Il be specfic.

I wonder if anyone can tell me the difference between property taxes and rent?If I rent an apartment, I have to pay a tax – which is called rent – to stay in that apartment.Likewise, if I live on my own land, in my own house, I also have to pay rent – which is called a tax – a property tax – to stay on that land and in that house.


So is there any difference between rent and property tax?
Well, as far as I can tell, no there is not.
Let’s qualify this…
If I cease to pay my rent to my landlord for his apartment, the consequences of that action are for the landlord to evict me, with the city and state government’s support, of course. This I understand, for it is not my property for which I am living.

But what about my own land and home? The home that I might own outright, having paid all debt owed for that land and home? What if I cease to pay my rent (in the form of property taxes) to my landlord (who is the government) What will happen?
Well, as far as I know, the government will have the power to evict me from my own home who I am the landlord of.So is this a tax, or is it rent.

Lets go even further and call it for what it really is… extortion. Plain and simple.For through eminent domain, if a property tax is not resisted the goverment can take my property anytime you want. Just like a landlord can sell his property and kick you out of your apartment, anytime he likes.that,s if people choose to give the goverment a foot in the door with this property tax.

Last edited by !3theraven; 29-07-2011 at 15:52.
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29-07-2011, 15:37   #180
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So, if you own a car and pay your car tax, the government really own your car? And presumably they own your TV if you pay your TV license? Do they also own your income if you pay income tax?
I think what he is getting at is that if you don't pay your property tax they can take away your home, like they can your car.
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