[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by Galvasean

Chalicotherium was a knuckle walker and weighed an awful lot more than a silverback gorilla.

Very true an adult silverback can weight five hundred pounds while giganto was thought to have weighed 500 kilos or more. The point made by meldrum (that I should have put forward) was that the complexity of the ape shoulder joint along with the increasing width of the animal to encompass an increasingly large shoulder blade would have made load bearing via knuckle walking difficult. Grover krantz noted that the shape of the jaw bone indicates that the spine was attached directly below the jaw indicating an upright posistion. These are far from conclusive though.

[Adam Khor]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

Very true an adult silverback can weight five hundred pounds while giganto was thought to have weighed 500 kilos or more. The point made by meldrum (that I should have put forward) was that the complexity of the ape shoulder joint along with the increasing width of the animal to encompass an increasingly large shoulder blade would have made load bearing via knuckle walking difficult. Grover krantz noted that the shape of the jaw bone indicates that the spine was attached directly below the jaw indicating an upright posistion. These are far from conclusive though.

This is interesting, but I can´t help but to wonder... what if the ape had an erect stance but very long, orangutan-like arms that reached to the ground and still supported some of its weight with its forelimbs? I mean, no arm bones have been found, right? The animal may have had a stance similar to a man using crutches; erect (and thus with the spine directly below the jaw bone) but quadrupedal anyways. I don`t know jack about skeletal anatomy in apes so I have to ask to those who do, would this be possible? What do you think?

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by Adam Khor

This is interesting, but I can´t help but to wonder... what if the ape had an erect stance but very long, orangutan-like arms that reached to the ground and still supported some of its weight with its forelimbs? I mean, no arm bones have been found, right? The animal may have had a stance similar to a man using crutches; erect (and thus with the spine directly below the jaw bone) but quadrupedal anyways. I don`t know jack about skeletal anatomy in apes so I have to ask to those who do, would this be possible? What do you think?

Thats possible Adam. Giganto was a member of the sub family ponginae which is the same family that the Orangutange belongs to. Most members of this family use a modified form of knuckle walking called fist walking. This would nearly definatly prohibit a 500 kilo plus animal from supporting itself like this until it switched to knuckle walking. Also being a member of this family it likely had long arms. The jaw bones of Giganto are more simular to a human jaw bone in shape than the living great apes so either way it was an unusual creature.



Theres a reconstruction based on Grover krantz's analysis of the jaw bone.

[Adam Khor]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

Thats possible Adam. Giganto was a member of the sub family ponginae which is the same family that the Orangutange belongs to. Most members of this family use a modified form of knuckle walking called fist walking. This would nearly definatly prohibit a 500 kilo plus animal from supporting itself like this until it switched to knuckle walking. Also being a member of this family it likely had long arms. The jaw bones of Giganto are more simular to a human jaw bone in shape than the living great apes so either way it was an unusual creature.



Theres a reconstruction based on Grover krantz's analysis of the jaw bone.

Pretty cool, but I personally prefer this one (it has a creepy face and I like creepy XD)

[Wibbs]

I think I know him... The red hair being the giveaway.

I dunno, for me the giganto jaw looks as much like a gorilla jaw as a human. The palate arch is more an elongated U than human for a start. Way more. We're more a sideways C if you know what I mean. Depends what one is looking for maybe? And any supposition about spine attachment is very much in the realms of imagination again for me. Neandertals had a more projecting head over body ratio and they were defo upright walkers. Like Adam I reckon until a pelvis is identified we're in the realms of conjecture. BTW I bow to Galvasean's knowledge of obscure mammalian locomotion. No a real "we're not worthy" moment.

I'd soooo agree with Ed's take on this front;

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

As I said before evolution isnt conservative so why should our views on it be!

On the bigfoot/yeti front? I know a chap who came close to "something" in the wilds of Canada. A chap whose level headed credentials made me think I have to say. Not quite a believer, but defo made me think. Ditto for him. He's a psychiatrist by trade and a trout fisherman by birth and he saw something on one of these fishing trips that was life changing. He, because of who he is and the mind behind it can't quite resolve what he experienced. Maybe a race memory and trick of the mind in the face of odd stimuli, like the way some see Jesus in burnt toast, but it defo rattled him.

[Galvasean]

Originally Posted by Wibbs

BTW I bow to Galvasean's knowledge of obscure mammalian locomotion.

Notice how I generally remain quiet in threads on human evolution, not that I am not interested, but rather it is not my area of expertise. Instead I wait for an opportune moment to make an obscure reference and look all learned.

[Adam Khor]

Originally Posted by Wibbs

On the bigfoot/yeti front? I know a chap who came close to "something" in the wilds of Canada. A chap whose level headed credentials made me think I have to say. Not quite a believer, but defo made me think. Ditto for him. He's a psychiatrist by trade and a trout fisherman by birth and he saw something on one of these fishing trips that was life changing. He, because of who he is and the mind behind it can't quite resolve what he experienced. Maybe a race memory and trick of the mind in the face of odd stimuli, like the way some see Jesus in burnt toast, but it defo rattled him.

Yeah, I know a guy who spent years in Peru. According to him, the local indians say sabertoothed cats are still alive, and they identified a picture he took of a Smilodon as that of a living species they were familiar with. He also said that they constantly refered to the creature as "huge". Needless to say this was extremely exciting for me to hear. I really wish its true.

[Yitzhak Rabin]

I'm not so sure of the Bigfoot ones, I think people seeing bears is the most likely situation. Am I right in thinking that we're the only apes that managed to make it to the America?

Although, the Orang Pendak sounds very plausible. I would definitely be more inclined to believe that one is true, rather than untrue.

There's actually some decent evidence of it. They had hair samples that were found in a footprint analysed and the result was an as yet unidentified primate. It does sound an awful lot like Homo florensis doesn't it?

Here's what Debbie Martyr had to say about her encounter. I'd place a good bit of weight in her testimony. She's lived and worked in the area for 15 years AFAIR.

Originally Posted by Debbie Martyr

It walked straight across the valley in front of me, thirty meters away. So close! I didn't expect it. I certainly didn't expect to see it so clearly. It was walking between two trees, vegetation to about hip level. This gorgeous, graceful, very strongly built primate, a big ape, walking out of a legend and into broad daylight, lit up by the sun. If I'd seen it concealed in undergrowth, I could have said, "Well, I saw 'something'." But I didn't see "something". I saw an orang pendek...
-Debbie Martyr

[Adam Khor]

Originally Posted by yekahS

I'm not so sure of the Bigfoot ones, I think people seeing bears is the most likely situation. Am I right in thinking that we're the only apes that managed to make it to the America?

Although, the Orang Pendak sounds very plausible. I would definitely be more inclined to believe that one is true, rather than untrue.

There's actually some decent evidence of it. They had hair samples that were found in a footprint analysed and the result was an as yet unidentified primate. It does sound an awful lot like Homo florensis doesn't it?

Here's what Debbie Martyr had to say about her encounter. I'd place a good bit of weight in her testimony. She's lived and worked in the area for 15 years AFAIR.

Testomonies like this are the spice of life

I think no ape fossils (other than humans) have ever been found in America, but I wouldn`t say its impossible. Some animals that we usually think of as Asian did reach the New World during the last ice age- including dholes, hyenas and even the tiger. However, I think it would be more difficult for apes since they are usually adapted to warm rainforests where food is abundant. There wasn`t a lot of ape chowder in Beringia as far as we know. Also, not many trees to hide from wolves, hyenas, dholes, tigers etc...

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by Wibbs

I think I know him... The red hair being the giveaway.

I dunno, for me the giganto jaw looks as much like a gorilla jaw as a human. The palate arch is more an elongated U than human for a start. Way more. We're more a sideways C if you know what I mean. Depends what one is looking for maybe? And any supposition about spine attachment is very much in the realms of imagination again for me. Neandertals had a more projecting head over body ratio and they were defo upright walkers. Like Adam I reckon until a pelvis is identified we're in the realms of conjecture. BTW I bow to Galvasean's knowledge of obscure mammalian locomotion. No a real "we're not worthy" moment.

I think ill do a bit of bowing myself as I have no idea about biomechanics not due to lack of interest though as it a fascinating and informative area.

I'd soooo agree with Ed's take on this front;

Thanks Wibbs that sums up my attitudes to most areas of biology.

On the bigfoot/yeti front? I know a chap who came close to "something" in the wilds of Canada. A chap whose level headed credentials made me think I have to say. Not quite a believer, but defo made me think. Ditto for him. He's a psychiatrist by trade and a trout fisherman by birth and he saw something on one of these fishing trips that was life changing. He, because of who he is and the mind behind it can't quite resolve what he experienced. Maybe a race memory and trick of the mind in the face of odd stimuli, like the way some see Jesus in burnt toast, but it defo rattled him.

Thanks for sharing Wibbs I find reports like that interesting. It highlights a aspect for me which sticks out. A lot of bigfoot witnesses describe themselves as skeptics and have basically the misfortune of seeing something thats not supposed to exist. I find the reports that were made pre internet to be most interesting as there are over 2000 reports all as boring as hell because they describe the exact same thing. A friend who lives in British columbia works with a chap (yes I know friend of a friend) who saw something that looked exactly like a man only covered in hair although built like a gorilla and a lot more graceful than a man. I find it hard to beleive all these people are lieing about the same thing.

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by Adam Khor

Yeah, I know a guy who spent years in Peru. According to him, the local indians say sabertoothed cats are still alive, and they identified a picture he took of a Smilodon as that of a living species they were familiar with. He also said that they constantly refered to the creature as "huge". Needless to say this was extremely exciting for me to hear. I really wish its true.

I have heard stories of the saber tooth tigers of south america myself (not first hand) and interestingly they are often described as semi aqautic.

[steddyeddy]

Originally Posted by yekahS

I'm not so sure of the Bigfoot ones, I think people seeing bears is the most likely situation. Am I right in thinking that we're the only apes that managed to make it to the America?

Although, the Orang Pendak sounds very plausible. I would definitely be more inclined to believe that one is true, rather than untrue.

There's actually some decent evidence of it. They had hair samples that were found in a footprint analysed and the result was an as yet unidentified primate. It does sound an awful lot like Homo florensis doesn't it?

Here's what Debbie Martyr had to say about her encounter. I'd place a good bit of weight in her testimony. She's lived and worked in the area for 15 years AFAIR.

Well a few years ago I would have agreed with the bear theory but bear expert lynn rogers and john bindernagl disagree that hundreds of experienced hunters could mistake a bear for a very fast upright ape. I find that less beleiveable than the idea that there is an unknown in america/canada.

The orang pendek is very credible indeed thanks for the Debbie martyr comment!

[Adam Khor]

Originally Posted by steddyeddy

I have heard stories of the saber tooth tigers of south america myself (not first hand) and interestingly they are often described as semi aqautic.

I know, but he didn`t mention any of that. Of course, we didn`t get to talk about it as much as I would've liked.