[Alastriona73]

Originally Posted by Welease

Well that's a personal choice.. but you already pay for disability services, services for the elderly, services for travellers, services for the blind, environmental services, library services, swimming pools, social housing, infrastructure services, social welfare, parking attendants, public toilets, youth services, sports services etc etc etc..

I doubt you use every one of those services

Well actually I do pay tax to support services for the elderly/disabled/social welfare/health etc and will happily do so even if I currently do not avail of these services. (I may have to in the future). But I have a problem with paying for services I will never have access to and subsidising others who get the services and can afford to pay for them. Not everyone living in the towns or cities is poor you know.

[Welease]

Originally Posted by Alastriona73

Well actually I do pay tax to support services for the elderly/disabled/social welfare/health etc and will happily do so even if I currently do not avail of these services. (I may have to in the future). But I have a problem with paying for services I will never have access to and subsidising others who get the services and can afford to pay for them. Not everyone living in the towns or cities is poor you know.

I'm not sure what point you are making to be honest... I never said anyone was rich, poor or otherwise..

I merely explained why the tax is likely to exist, and that personally I can't see the arguement why people believe that if they pay a management company that they should be immune from a household tax.. We all pay for services that we don't receive... as we don't run a consumption based taxation system.

[Floppybits]

Originally Posted by Welease

On the other hand, I still don't get why people think they are paying twice.. Paying twice for what? The road may be adopted, and maybe the sewerage.. but buildings upkeep, insurance, bins, parking facilities, security, non street lighting, landscaping/garden tending (in private areas) etc etc etc. are not provided by the council anyway.. to anyone.. I imagine a large part of the fees to management companies cover those costs, costs were are paid privately by private house owners.

So if the management company are paying the council for the road and sewage, does that mean that when the tax comes in that the household tax will cover that as it is going to the local council and the management company can then reduce their costs because they no longer have to pay for the sewage or the road as they are now looked after by the council? This is why people are asking about the reduction in the management fees.

See this is my problem with these charges, the same for the water charges, is are we going to see improvement in services, will I see more rubbish bins in my village, will I see cleaner streets, will I see cleaner water in my taps that I can drink, if this was the case then great the tax is worth paying but I don't we will see these kinda improvements or changes and then this annoys people because it causes us to ask what are we paying for?

[Alastriona73]

Originally Posted by Welease

I'm not sure what point you are making to be honest... I never said anyone was rich, poor or otherwise..

I merely explained why the tax is likely to exist, and that personally I can't see the arguement why people believe that if they pay a management company that they should be immune from a household tax.. We all pay for services that we don't receive... as we don't run a consumption based taxation system.

I think in that case they should just come out and call it a property tax then instead of trying to pretend it is a charge for something we are all receiving. Sorry my point about rich and poor is that I don't mind paying tax for services for the most vulnerable and poor in our society or for services which are supposed to be available to all such as health/education/roads etc but I object to paying for services I have no access to.

[Welease]

Originally Posted by Floppybits

So if the management company are paying the council for the road and sewage, does that mean that when the tax comes in that the household tax will cover that as it is going to the local council and the management company can then reduce their costs because they no longer have to pay for the sewage or the road as they are now looked after by the council? This is why people are asking about the reduction in the management fees.

But (and this is a key point) a reduction in management charges are completely different from a reduction in household tax charges. Managementcompany charges are a private agreement between tenants/owners and a company to provide services.
It also assumes that the council suddently start covering the cost of those charges (lighting, roads etc.) which may not be the case..

This is a tax.. I have not seen anything to indicate that councils will adopt all blocks/estate currently beyond their remit, and if that does not happen then I wouldnt expect to see a reduction in management fees either.

(also.. are the MC actually paying the Council for roads & sewerage as you say? I would have assumed they are private roads, and nothing has been paid to the council.. much the same as my road and sewerage system)

Originally Posted by Floppybits

See this is my problem with these charges, the same for the water charges, is are we going to see improvement in services, will I see more rubbish bins in my village, will I see cleaner streets, will I see cleaner water in my taps that I can drink, if this was the case then great the tax is worth paying but I don't we will see these kinda improvements or changes and then this annoys people because it causes us to ask what are we paying for?

We are paying for our defecit and bank bailout.. You will likely not see an improvement in services.

[ART6]

All this demonstrates is that the current government is just as good at cheating and lying as was the previous one. "If we are elected, no new taxes". "Oh, these are not taxes, they are charges."

They are all stealth TAXES. A household utility charge is a TAX. A pension funds levy is a TAX. They are taxes levied by politicians who are too evasive and dishonest to ever let the people really know what the gang that masquerades as a government really costs them. And it's happening because we cannot possibly let reckless bond investors in Germany lose a cent, can we?

I am bitterly angry about the whole deal, and I will oppose it in any way that I can including flat refusal to pay. I'll be damned if I will willingly pay these devils for the privilege of using something I own and for which I paid with already well taxed income, and I intend to shout at any b***dy TD I can get at.

[MackDaddi]

Originally Posted by ART6

All this demonstrates is that the current government is just as good at cheating and lying as was the previous one. "If we are elected, no new taxes". "Oh, these are not taxes, they are charges."

They are all stealth TAXES. A household utility charge is a TAX. A pension funds levy is a TAX.

"Levy" is my new least favourite word. I am sick of flat rate this, that, and the other being foisted on all and sundry, regardless of the situation they are in or the fairness or equitability of the charge. All that these blunt instrument taxes and levies do is further marginalise the most marginalised people in society. They hit the people whose living standards have taken the biggest hit already the hardest, despite the fact that they usually had little or nothing to do with getting us in this situation in the first place.

I am no fan of new taxes, but let's face it, they are inevitable if the country is to survive, but if they are inevitable can't we do them in a fairer manner? Enough pussyfooting around and introducing new stealth taxes that aren't really taxes. Stick a couple of percent on income tax across the board, bring in a tax band for higher earners, and have done with it.

Get more tax from the people who have more money, and less tax from the people who have less, and while you're at it, stop making excuses and tackle the inefficiency in the bloody public sector. Sort out the health service, root out the dole bludgers, and stop wasting money that taxpayers are literally going hungry over in order to pay you.

[Floppybits]

Originally Posted by MackDaddi

"Levy" is my new least favourite word. I am sick of flat rate this, that, and the other being foisted on all and sundry, regardless of the situation they are in or the fairness or equitability of the charge. All that these blunt instrument taxes and levies do is further marginalise the most marginalised people in society. They hit the people whose living standards have taken the biggest hit already the hardest, despite the fact that they usually had little or nothing to do with getting us in this situation in the first place.

I am no fan of new taxes, but let's face it, they are inevitable if the country is to survive, but if they are inevitable can't we do them in a fairer manner? Enough pussyfooting around and introducing new stealth taxes that aren't really taxes. Stick a couple of percent on income tax across the board, bring in a tax band for higher earners, and have done with it.

Get more tax from the people who have more money, and less tax from the people who have less, and while you're at it, stop making excuses and tackle the inefficiency in the bloody public sector. Sort out the health service, root out the dole bludgers, and stop wasting money that taxpayers are literally going hungry over in order to pay you.

+1,000,000. Well said MackDadi, its time to stop pussyfooting around and time to start banging heads and get things sorted.

[Zubeneschamali]

Originally Posted by MackDaddi

Get more tax from the people who have more money, and less tax from the people who have less,

But our income tax system is famously progressive: half of all earners pay no income tax at all. We need to broaden the base, collect tax from more people, not just more tax from the same people.

A big benefit of rates is that even self-employed wealthy people with clever accountants like to own a nice house, even if they massage the books to minimise their "income" for tax purposes.

[rasper]

I wonder how they plan to collect it, like the RTE levy or the 2nd house tax, can see a hugh amount of people not paying either by ,wonder how many of the 2 million households will end up paying
Hope there is mass refusal but we know the Irish sap will whinge and moan and then pay the bondholders their property tax.

[ART6]

Originally Posted by MackDaddi

"Levy" is my new least favourite word. I am sick of flat rate this, that, and the other being foisted on all and sundry, regardless of the situation they are in or the fairness or equitability of the charge. All that these blunt instrument taxes and levies do is further marginalise the most marginalised people in society. They hit the people whose living standards have taken the biggest hit already the hardest, despite the fact that they usually had little or nothing to do with getting us in this situation in the first place.

I am no fan of new taxes, but let's face it, they are inevitable if the country is to survive, but if they are inevitable can't we do them in a fairer manner? Enough pussyfooting around and introducing new stealth taxes that aren't really taxes. Stick a couple of percent on income tax across the board, bring in a tax band for higher earners, and have done with it.

Get more tax from the people who have more money, and less tax from the people who have less, and while you're at it, stop making excuses and tackle the inefficiency in the bloody public sector. Sort out the health service, root out the dole bludgers, and stop wasting money that taxpayers are literally going hungry over in order to pay you.

I fully agree with everything you've said. The trouble is that the policy you suggest would require the liars to come out in the open and admit just how much they are costing the average Joe. We have stealth taxes, "levies", and "Household Utility charges" because they are so used to cheating everyone that they can't imagine doing anything else. They won't change their own lifestyles any more than marginally, and they won't get rid of their pet quangos and "boards" as that would put their mates out of a nice little earner each. So Average Joe must pay.

Well, I bloody well won't!

[Idbatterim]

well there would be no need for this if they were actually bothered tackling the PS pay and numbers, along with god knows what else! will the poor pensioners be excluded again? These levy's are just another tax, the thing is though, that they are much easier to get away with because, the argument will be made that "pretty much all other countries in EU have them..." "the IMF are making us do it", now you go and try and increase PAYE, or decrease welfare or cut PS pay again, to raise the same amount as these levy's will! Good Luck! LOL

[ART6]

Originally Posted by Idbatterim

the thing is though, that they are much easier to get away with because, the argument will be made that "pretty much all other countries in EU have them..." "the IMF are making us do it", now you go and try and increase PAYE, or decrease welfare or cut PS pay again, to raise the same amount as these levy's will! Good Luck! LOL

Yes, the get out is always that someone else is making us do it. Are we a sovereign country? (Edit -- I know the answer to that). "Most other countries in Europe have them." So does that make it either right or suitable for Ireland? Many other countries in the EU have water meters and charges, but they have climates where water is likely to be scarce. Some EU countries have large manufacturing industries, so we should have them too. Some EU countries have sophisticated health systems -- so why don't we? Some EU countries have strict immigration controls that prevent non-nationals from sponging on the public purse. Why don't we? Why do we pay children's allowance to families that don't live in the state?

Oh yes, but we can blame the IMF though, can't we? Did the IMF actually demand domestic rates (taxes) and water charges? They don't usually dictate to that extent as far as I am aware. To me it's more likely that these stealth taxes were offered by our politicians rather than demanded of them, because doing that was an easier option than doing as other posters here have suggested.

I didn't vote for FF, FG, or Labour because I believed all of them as far as I could throw a dead rat. I feel justified

[Mizu_Ger]

Reading through the posts here I think it's just best to see this as what it is... a new tax. That's all. It's not going to make the local community any better. It'll just be there to pay the council so the government doesn't have to. That's about it. There's no justification for it other than we (as a country) have bills to pay.

Although I will be contacting my local TD to see if she can explain it to me!

[MackDaddi]

Originally Posted by Mizu_Ger

Reading through the posts here I think it's just best to see this as what it is... a new tax. That's all. It's not going to make the local community any better. It'll just be there to pay the council so the government doesn't have to.

So why not just call it a council tax, and stop treating us like morons? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck. We are not complete idiots.

How about a little respect from government for a change?