[marienbad]

Philologos, in your opinion,do all those Muslims and non believers that either won't or can't believe in Jesus go to hell ?

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by tommy2bad

No he is morality, God doesn't follow any law in the sense that He could choose evil or good but chooses good.

Then it makes no sense to say that God knows what is good, or what is best for us, or is caring to us, since all those concepts would simply be defined as what ever God happens to treat us like.

Again take the parent of a child. It is common to say that a parent decides what is good for a child. It sounds nice but we don't actually mean it. Society gives parents freedom to decide things for their children up to a certain point and after a certain point the State will step in to protect the child.

But imagine if we actually meant it, that what is good for the child was genuinely totally decided by the parent. So if a parent is beating the crap out of their child, that is good for the child. If the parent is burning fags out on his arm then that is, by definition, good for the child.

We know that is not the case, but we can only do that by being in a position to judge the parent independently to the notion that she knows what is good for the child.

Imagine if we didn't have that ability, if by definition you had to agree that what the parent was doing was good for the child. It would make "good" meaningless. What is good for the child by human standards means what will help and nurture and protect the child. But that is our standards, and we have just thrown them away and replaced them with what ever the mother comes up with.

If the mother harms the child, that is good. What? we had a notion that harming the child isn't good? Well we were wrong, because the mother just harmed the child and since the mother did it it must be good.

As such we divorce "good" from any tangible meaning. I could say that "good" relates to not harming the child. But if the mother harms the child I'm wrong. I could say that "good" relates to making the child feel safe and secure. But if the mother threatens the child, I'm wrong. etc.

[philologos]

Originally Posted by marienbad

Philologos, in your opinion,do all those Muslims and non believers that either won't or can't believe in Jesus go to hell ?

I don't believe that it is true that people aren't capable of believing in Jesus. It is more that people don't desire to do so.

Ultimately, if we've all sinned, and if Jesus is the only way that we can be saved (John 14:6), then there are very clear consequences for refusing to acknowledge Him. That's why Christians long to tell people about Him, so that they might be saved through Him.

Zombrex: Caring is taking an interest in Creation. I don't see why it need be any more complex than that . God loves us, God knows the parameters of Creation and as a result knows how to live in it. That's why He's given us standards that we ought to follow. It is for our own benefit than for our detriment.

[tommy2bad]

Originally Posted by philologos

I don't believe that it is true that people aren't capable of believing in Jesus. It is more that people don't desire to do so.

Ultimately, if we've all sinned, and if Jesus is the only way that we can be saved (John 14:6), then there are very clear consequences for refusing to acknowledge Him. That's why Christians long to tell people about Him, so that they might be saved through Him.

Zombrex: Caring is taking an interest in Creation. I don't see why it need be any more complex than that . God loves us, God knows the parameters of Creation and as a result knows how to live in it. That's why He's given us standards that we ought to follow. It is for our own benefit than for our detriment.

But lets say people who never heard of Jesus? You knew that was coming, right?

[RichieC]

Seems to be a common enough phenomenon that people think the majority religion they grew up around is the one true religion.

[HamletOrHecuba]

Originally Posted by marienbad

Philologos, in your opinion,do all those Muslims and non believers that either won't or can't believe in Jesus go to hell ?

There are a lot of truths in Islam, and though this question wasnt aimed at me Im going to be cheeky enough to give my opinion; I do think and hope its possible that a lot of Muslims will be saved through the Divine Truth there is in Islam though they are (hopefully) saved through what is true in it and despite of what is false in it. I would have a lot more hope of pious Muslims entering into the Kingdom of Heaven they I would of most who call themselves Christian in Ireland today doing so.

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by philologos

Zombrex: Caring is taking an interest in Creation. I don't see why it need be any more complex than that . God loves us, God knows the parameters of Creation and as a result knows how to live in it. That's why He's given us standards that we ought to follow. It is for our own benefit than for our detriment.

The parent who beats their child every day for being soft is taking an interest in their child. That doesn't make it caring.

Like I explained to tommy2bad if morality is defined by God it makes no sense to say that he cares for us simply by taking interest in us, since there would be no such thing for him to take a non-caring interest in us. You and all other Christians would simply define that as "caring".

You cannot tell that something is good unless you can say you know what it would be like if it was bad.

If what ever it is must be good then you cannot say it is good. Thus the term becomes meaningless. It is pointless to say God loves us, since a non-loving God is unimaginable given that what ever God does you simply define that as loving us.

If you don't believe me simply ask yourself what would a "bad" or "non-loving" God be?

[ISAW]

Originally Posted by RichieC

Seems to be a common enough phenomenon that people think the majority religion they grew up around is the one true religion.

how do you explain the growth of Christianity among paganism or Judaism?

[RichieC]

Originally Posted by ISAW

how do you explain the growth of Christianity among paganism or Judaism?

I'm not a historian, but I do know the Christians outlawed Paganism in 350 and began to murder Pagans or Convert them and destroy their temples. Christianity was a political power back then.

What's that got to do with what I said anyway? It is a self evident fact. most people in Eire are Catholics because it was the dominant religion. Mormonism arose as a regional religion as was Judaism back in the day.

If Christianity had of arose on two sides of the planet at once with two Identical bibles I'd be inclined to perhaps give it more thought. But it didn't. No religion has.

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by RichieC

I'm not a historian, but I do know the Christians outlawed Paganism in 350 and began to murder Pagans or Convert them and destroy their temples. Christianity was a political power back then.

Explaining why a small percentage of people convert to a religion they were not raised in also doesn't explain why so many people simply continue in the religion they were raised in.

It is almost as if for most people it is not the details of the religion itself but the broad themes any of them can provide. Almost as if religion in general is some sort of human phenomena

[ISAW]

Originally Posted by Zombrex

Then it makes no sense to say that God knows what is good, or what is best for us, or is caring to us, since all those concepts would simply be defined as what ever God happens to treat us like.

discussed earlier
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...nsburg_en.html

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature.[5] The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.[6] Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.[7]

[tommy2bad]

Originally Posted by Zombrex

Explaining why a small percentage of people convert to a religion they were not raised in also doesn't explain why so many people simply continue in the religion they were raised in.

It is almost as if for most people it is not the details of the religion itself but the broad themes any of them can provide. Almost as if religion in general is some sort of human phenomena

Nail and head. Thats because we are created by God
(See what I did their)

[marienbad]

Originally Posted by philologos

I don't believe that it is true that people aren't capable of believing in Jesus. It is more that people don't desire to do so.

Ultimately, if we've all sinned, and if Jesus is the only way that we can be saved (John 14:6), then there are very clear consequences for refusing to acknowledge Him. That's why Christians long to tell people about Him, so that they might be saved through Him.

Zombrex: Caring is taking an interest in Creation. I don't see why it need be any more complex than that . God loves us, God knows the parameters of Creation and as a result knows how to live in it. That's why He's given us standards that we ought to follow. It is for our own benefit than for our detriment.

So that is a yes then ?

All those Muslims that live good lives according to their beliefs are wasting their time as they are going to hell anyway ?

And all those murderers dictators torturers rapists child molesters that repent and believe in Jesus are going to heaven ?

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by ISAW

discussed earlier
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...nsburg_en.html

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature.[5] The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.[6] Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.[7]

That is a pointless argument, since it does the same thing as asserting God is good.

If God acts a particular way and we find it unreasonable or illogical then we are, by definition, wrong.

If you say "God will not do X because that would defy reason" and then God did X you would not say that cannot be God or God does not exist. You would say our understanding of X being something that defied reason was flawed.

The illogical nature of a number of Christian doctrine has been pointed out by atheists and other non-Christians on this forum and far beyond. Aside from a few converts this seems to have very little effect on you guys.

You simply say that we are wrong, even I would point out, while happily admitting you do not know why we are wrong, as PDN and Phil have done many times.

Even right now we are discussing the unreasonable assert that God does not want us to suffer yet made it so that we would suffer in his absence. You are desperately searching for a way to make that sound reasonable, wheedling out all manner of straw man arguments from free will to God just respecting our choices, none of which even begin to answer the actual questions.

Others have thrown up their hands and simply said they don't know, but they do know there is a reason and they will ask God what it is when they see him.

It is some what off topic, but it should also be pointed out that you have nothing to base your assertion that God is reasonable on other than that is simply how you choose to believe he is.

[Zombrex]

Originally Posted by tommy2bad

Nail and head. Thats because we are created by God
(See what I did their)

Which one .. see what I did there ...