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Interventionist God

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Comments

  • #182
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Correct. Saved and lost.

    Incorrect. I've already given examples of Gods potential purposefulness. Punishment is one, discipline of believers another, bringing unbelievers to their knees another, taking a believer to glory yet another.

    Yet you persist in concluding that which you can't conclude from what I've said. I don't see much point in going in circles with you in this.

    Incorrect. All lost sinners are damned - irrespective of the nature of their sin. In that they are indistinguishable.

    Correct - once the cry is elicted by conviction brought about by God. Not every cry of desparation need be this.

    Or Abba (Hebrew, not Swedish)

    You are describing a bully. Not God.


  • #183
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    You are describing a bully. Not God.

    Non sequitur.


  • #184
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Non sequitur.

    I don't think so; your assessment of God puts Him in the role of an un-appeasable jailer who occasionally throws granades in the cells in order to make people cry out for mercy. What need is there of the Devil?

    If that is the case then it would be understandable that people would turn to Satan; he would seem to be the lesser of two evils. Especially if Satan is thought of as Lucifer, the angel of light in a dark, dark world.


  • #185
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    I don't think so; your assessment of God puts Him in the role of an un-appeasable jailer who occasionally throws granades in the cells in order to make people cry out for mercy. What need is there of the Devil?

    Category error.

    If God didn't throw those 'grenades' in, then no one would have a reason to think there was a crucial problem to be resolved. And if they didn't know they'd a crucial problem to be resolved (the eventual consequences of which makes hand grenades look like flower petals) then they'd have no reason to seek escape from that problem. And if no reason to escape then no one would ever escape and all people would be lost.

    I much prefer being found - despite the handgrenades it took to dislodge me. Every one else who has been found would say the same thing.


  • #186
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    himnextdoor said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wolfsbane
    No. Just no special, on-going curse like at the beginning. God does intervene - all the time, to bring all things to accomplish His goals. No one dies, not even a sparrow, without His say-so. We are never just victims of chance.

    But God intervenes in judgement too: He killed Herod for his sin at Caesarea; He killed Christians for their sins at Corinth. The example given of national punishment in the OT still stands - God does not allow the world to get as wicked as it wants, but puts a stop when the His limit is reached.
    So, Jesus atoned for the sins of those Christians at Corinth but God judged them by their sins anyway?
    Yes, Jesus atoned for ALL the sins of the Corinthian Christians. Yes, He judged them for SOME of those sins. But the judgement Christians face here is not the judgement sinners face on Judgement Day. Note the passage:
    1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

    Our judgement NOW results in chastening - scourging a disobedient son - for their recovery. Judgement THEN is to condemnation - punishment that has no end for the judged.

    ************************************************************************************************
    Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


    “ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
    Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
    6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
    And scourges every son whom He receives.”

    7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?


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  • #187
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

    Our judgement NOW results in chastening - scourging a disobedient son - for their recovery. Judgement THEN is to condemnation - punishment that has no end for the judged.

    ************************************************************************************************
    Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


    “ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
    Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
    6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
    And scourges every son whom He receives.”

    7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?

    Did Jesus make any similar assertions?


  • #188
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Did Jesus make any similar assertions?

    About being disciplined? Disciples disciplined? Poppycock!

    :)


  • #189
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    About being disciplined? Disciples disciplined? Poppycock!

    :)

    Paul talks about it a lot but Jesus doesn't seem to.


  • #190
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Paul talks about it a lot but Jesus doesn't seem to.

    Paul would talk about it a lot because Paul's job (per the layout of his epistles) is to:

    a) lay out doctrine mechanics and explain their connection into the mechanism as a whole

    b) explain how it is Christians should live in the light of those doctrines (application of doctrine). A classic example being the book of Romans discourse on salvation by faith alone (doctrine) and living free from slavery to religious activity yet entrapped by the love God has shown us (application).

    Jesus might 'throwaway' a comment like "you must be born again". Paul spends half an epistle explaining what that actually means. And so talks about it more than Jesus.


    That said. What do you make of Jesus' parable of the talents
    Wiki wrote:
    Traditionally, the parable of the talents has been seen as an exhortation to Jesus' disciples to use their God-given gifts in the service of God, and to take risks for the sake of the Kingdom of God. These gifts have been seen to include personal abilities ("talents" in the everyday sense), as well as personal wealth.Failure to use one's gifts, the parable suggests, will result in judgement


  • #191
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Paul would talk about it a lot because Paul's job (per the layout of his epistles) is to:

    a) lay out doctrine mechanics and explain their connection into the mechanism as a whole

    b) explain how it is Christians should live in the light of those doctrines (application of doctrine). A classic example being the book of Romans discourse on salvation by faith alone (doctrine) and living free from slavery to religious activity yet entrapped by the love God has shown us (application).

    Jesus might 'throwaway' a comment like "you must be born again". Paul spends half an epistle explaining what that actually means. And so talks about it more than Jesus.


    That said. What do you make of Jesus' parable of the talents

    I think that parable, (is it the one about three slaves with ten, five and three talents?), is another take on the 'seperating the sheep from the goats' analogy. It comes accross as a final judgement scenario wherein the 'lazy and evil slave' is damned.

    The talents parable seem to use the 'work ethic' as a device to show faith and 'the boss' of the slaves, an employer who requires that his employees 'add value' to the company, is equated to the Father; an emplyee who doesn't work hard for his boss will be 'fired', so to speak. (No pun intended.)

    I think that Jesus was saying that being a good employee is analogous to being faithful. And unproductive employees are analogous to the unfaithful.

    But I think that chastisement is different. It is like a clip round the ear for being naughty; a direction to not do something again as opposed to being cast into the fiery lake.

    I'm not sure that Jesus indicated that His Father administers 'clips around the ears' anymore.

    If you choose the wrong path you end up in the wrong place. I don't think that God punishes that but if He is looking to employ us as navigators, to continue the master/slave analogy, then those who can't read a map are no addition to Him and therefore don't get the job.


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  • #192
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    Did Jesus make any similar assertions?

    Possibly this:
    John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

    As antiskeptic points out, Jesus appointed the apostles to deliver the fullness of Christian doctrine, as noted below.

    ************************************************************************
    John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.


  • #193
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Possibly this:
    John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


    To prune is to chastise? Not sure about that one.
    wolfsbane wrote: »
    As antiskeptic points out, Jesus appointed the apostles to deliver the fullness of Christian doctrine, as noted below.

    John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

    I took that to be the fore-telling of another prophet.


  • #194
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    himnextdoor said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wolfsbane
    Possibly this:
    John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


    To prune is to chastise? Not sure about that one.
    The practice indicates a purifying:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2508&t=KJV

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wolfsbane
    As antiskeptic points out, Jesus appointed the apostles to deliver the fullness of Christian doctrine, as noted below.

    John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
    I took that to be the fore-telling of another prophet.
    It speaks of the Holy Spirit. He would instruct the apostles in all they had to teach. He was to come at Pentecost:
    Acts 1:4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    And He did:
    Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    *************************************************************************
    Acts 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.


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