The Failed Waterford Bypass and Toll System

Marchandire · 24-02-2011 2:18am #1

A couple of recent articles have examined the new Waterford bypass. They make interesting reading: http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/a_bridge_too_far_suir_crossing_is_a_rip_off_nra_1_2395649

The new bridge - slated to carry 14,000 vehicles per day in year one - is operating at one third capacity and only carrying an average of 5,500 vehicles per day. In contrast, the impact on traffic on Rice Bridge is effectively non-existent:

'Traffic figures from the Edmund Rice Bridge have remained stubbornly high. The most recent comparable figures available show that the levels of traffic using the Edmund Rice bridge before and after the opening of the Suir Bridge have decreased by 2,000 vehicles a day, from 40,000 to 38,000. The Department of Transport and the National Roads Authority had claimed that traffic volumes using Rice Bridge would be reduced by 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles per day once the Suir bridge was in operation.'

Gary Fitzgerald goes further with this analysis in the print edition of Village Magazine. A study commissioned by the Rainbow coalition in the 1990s concluded that Irish roads are unsuitable for tolling (given the vast number of country/back roads that allow drivers to avoid tolls, I assume). This was ignored by the FF/PD coalition, who embarked on a series of toll-road PPP projects. This included the 52 million Euro Waterford bypass.

He goes on to say that the toll operators most likely have a 'minimum usage' clause in their contract. This means the operator is compensated by the state if traffic volumes are low. A guaranteed return on their investment in every circumstance, funded by the local taxpayer.

Essentially, the bypass has had no effect on congestion in the city and is a potential burden on the taxpayer for the next twenty years. The potential for failure was discussed fifteen years ago but ignored by local and national politicians. To quote:

'Instead of a busy bypass and a traffic free city, we have an empty bypass and a city as congested as it ever was...52 million Euro wasted in Waterford. The city condemned to years of further congestion. Prime agriculltural land concreted over. A private consortium makes a guaranteed profit for 26 years.'

This bypass was almost universally welcomed by local politicians, as various blog posts and news articles/press releases demonstrate.

I just wanted to highlight this before polling day.

dayshah · 24-02-2011 8:08am

Is this a fair summary?

If we keep the toll, few people use the road and we have to compensate the operators.

If we abolish the toll people will use the road, but we must compensate the operators.

I'd say we should abolish the toll. Pity this didn't come up during the election campaign.

old gregg · 24-02-2011 10:02am

I suppose we need to know whether there is in fact a minimum usage clause in the contract. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to the workings of the FF scumbag government but it would be nice to be on solid ground here.

I'll fire off a quick mail to city council to see if they can either give us an answer or point me in the direction of the right place to ask. It being city council I don't expect a response soon. If anyone else knows where to get this info then many thanks.

wellboytoo · 24-02-2011 10:43am

What is the point of this article?
It failed to mention the benefits of the bypass completely, its like it was written to be a negative story only,one wonders about the reason behind such an article written about Waterford from a Kilkenny perspective.
Personally I came from Dublin Airport yesterday morning to Tramore across it in two hours, after a long flight that was a great relief to me knowing I did not have to face the bog road of yesteryear and coming into Waterford I could avoid the quays et al.
I stress again what was the point of this article?

Max Powers · 24-02-2011 12:15pm

To be fair to the KK people article, traffic numbers have been disappointing on the bypass,however this is very similar to what happened with the opening of the M50. We are also in the worst recession in the history of the state, car traffic has dropped significantly.
Plans are afoot for the Waterford Quays and Mall to be made more pedestrian and less traffic friendly which will increase flow onto the bypass. What is the point of the article being front page news in KK?, it smacks of a bit of jealousy really,
the Bridge is a fantastic advertisement for Waterford and the SE,
has reduced travel times in general around the area including south KK,
reduced heavy traffic through the city,
given an alternative access point to the city which was needed,
reduced traffic times from Cork to Rosslare and is a significant piece of infrastructure for all of the south east including KK.

Joey leBlanc · 24-02-2011 12:15pm

wellboytoo wrote: »

What is the point of this article?
It failed to mention the benefits of the bypass completely, its like it was written to be a negative story only,one wonders about the reason behind such an article written about Waterford from a Kilkenny perspective.
Personally I came from Dublin Airport yesterday morning to Tramore across it in two hours, after a long flight that was a great relief to me knowing I did not have to face the bog road of yesteryear and coming into Waterford I could avoid the quays et al.
I stress again what was the point of this article?

Agree 100%. The article is pointless. The road/bypass/bridge is a fantastic addition to Waterford & it's environs. Nobody would envisage revisiting the torturous old n9 road winding it's way through every bend in South Kilkenny at a snail's pace with tailbacks in both directions as far as the eye could see!
BTW I'd like to state that this is not an anti-Kilkenny post as I have family & relations from there (indeed so do a large percentage of Waterford people).

rayc · 24-02-2011 12:36pm

Joey leBlanc wrote: »

Agree 100%. The article is pointless. The road/bypass/bridge is a fantastic addition to Waterford & it's environs. Nobody would envisage revisiting the torturous old n9 road winding it's way through every bend in South Kilkenny at a snail's pace with tailbacks in both directions as far as the eye could see!
BTW I'd like to state that this is not an anti-Kilkenny post as I have family & relations from there (indeed so do a large percentage of Waterford people).

In fairness from what I read of the article there, it's only about the bridge and not the M9. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find someone to say the M9 isn't a fantastic addition to the region. However, as of yet I'd have to agree the the city bypass has not reached it's full potential. It's still relatively easy to get though the city, via summerhill or grattan quay, to the carrickpherish road and back onto the bypass. And this is what an awful lot of the daily commuters are doing. I mean this has been said loads of times already here in the Waterford forum itself.

Although where'd I'd disagree with the article is that I think its a bit soon to judge it a 'waste'. It has only been over a year since it opened, added to that impact of the recession and I think the lack of incentives on the part of the toll operator (i.e. decent savings for frequent users) have also been significant problems in its under-utilisation.

mike65 · 24-02-2011 12:43pm

Joey leBlanc wrote: »

BTW I'd like to state that this is not an anti-Kilkenny post as I have family & relations from there

To be fair thats no reason not to be anti somewhere

We all know the toll was a folly (its a tax on going to work for most regular users) and yes the current economic environment means its not being used to the level envisaged. The gentrification work on the Quays will only have an impact if commerical vehicles are shoo'd away for good.

Does anyone have a link to the south Quays plans?

ziedth · 24-02-2011 12:50pm

Without even knowing that there is a minimum usage policy (I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to find out) I can't believe a whole article has been written arond it.

Bards · 24-02-2011 12:51pm

Upping the limit on the ORR to 80 Km/H might have a positive effect on people using the Bypass from the Dunmore Road side.

At the moment it takes longer to get to the bypass by using the ORR with the dreadfully low inappropiate speed limit on it.

Why would one use the ORR/Bypass/Toll when the Toll Free route is quicker?

old gregg · 24-02-2011 12:52pm

ziedth wrote: »

Without even knowing that there is a minimum usage policy (I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to find out) I can't believe a whole article has been written arond it.

Indeed, I've emailed info@n25waterfordbypass.ie this morning to see if I can find out. If there is it makes the article relevant, otherwise not I guess.

wmpdd3 · 24-02-2011 1:15pm

I think the singage comming from Cork and Dublin is useless. Visitors have rang us when they have ended up in town because the didn't understand the signage.

As is the signage from Waterford city, drivers are 50mts from the roundabout at Grannagh before there is a sign for the bypass. They must know there is a problem because they put electronic signs up, but you have to be driving very slowly to read these signs fully.

You know yourself if its been a while since you visited a place and you try a new road and get confused, 1st thing you do is divert back to the road you know.

Do you know which part of Waterford is Waterford South or North?

Personally I use the bridge about once a week, especially if I'm going from the limerick Road to Tramore at peak times but to be honest at 11am on a week day its faster to go accross the bridge , up Carrigpherish, out by B&Q and around by the ring road, but the speed limit does put me off as I just get permenatly over-taken.

wellboytoo · 24-02-2011 2:27pm

@rayc, I agree the article is about the by pass only , but there is an intrinsic link between the two of them, and Ireland Inc were masters at building part of a roadway and dumping all the traffic on to a boreen then, in this case it was finished properly. So again you cannot divide the two parts as they have to be viewed as a whole.

STIG83 · 24-02-2011 2:42pm

I have no problem with the toll, it worth paying the fee to avoid the city if i was going to KK or Dublin.
If they put the toll plaza on the M9 between Waterford and KK, it might have worked better than where it is now.

thomasm · 24-02-2011 2:47pm

Out of curosity how many more people would use the bridge if the toll was €1.00, I know I would. They need to simply make it more attractive cost wise

fricatus · 24-02-2011 3:01pm

The bypass and bridge are a great addition to Waterford, and I believe they were built in the right place too. The only problem is the toll. It's obvious that 43,000 vehicles need to cross the river every day - the only problem is that so many of them go through the city centre.

The trouble is that the NRA somehow thought that a higher proportion of those 40-odd thousand vehicles were through traffic, and would naturally use the toll bridge. The scheme was referred to as a "bypass" whereas Cork and Limerick have "ring roads". I think the name alone betrays their view of Waterford as more a bottleneck for large amounts of through traffic (as Monasterevin was) rather than a primary destination in itself.

There really isn't all that much through traffic on the N25 near Waterford. The two cities of Waterford and Cork are by far and away the main origin/destination points for N25 traffic (and consequently most of the traffic in the Waterford area is going to or from Waterford itself).

Ultimately therefore, this bridge should best be considered as part of the city's road network rather than as part of a through-route. As such, it will carry a lot of daily commuter traffic, which is very toll-sensitive. If it's to be used to its potential, the toll will simply have to go.

wmpdd3 · 24-02-2011 3:19pm

STIG83 wrote: »

I have no problem with the toll, it worth paying the fee to avoid the city if i was going to KK or Dublin.
If they put the toll plaza on the M9 between Waterford and KK, it might have worked better than where it is now.

I'd pay €5 to avoid the old Waterford to Kilkenny road.

Best addition to Waterford in 20yrs.

Boskowski · 24-02-2011 3:21pm

A lot of the traffic is commuter traffic. For a commuter its simply too much to pay to add to ever rising petrol prices (for the most part due to tax/duty increases), motor tax etc.
The fact there isn't even the slightest bit of commuter/frequent user discount on the toll fees is outright scandalous.

Professey Chin · 24-02-2011 3:23pm

Boskowski wrote: »

A lot of the traffic is commuter traffic. For a commuter its simply too much to pay to add to ever rising petrol prices (for the most part due to tax/duty increases), motor tax etc.
The fact there isn't even the slightest bit of commuter/frequent user discount on the toll fees is outright scandalous.

That makes up something like 60% of petrol prices I think I heard yesterday :eek:
And motor tax is also the devil

Boskowski · 24-02-2011 3:28pm

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

That makes up something like 60% of petrol prices I think I heard yesterday :eek:

http://www.pumps.ie/FAQPricesExplained.php

If someone used the bridge twice a day it would add €75.60 to their monthly commuting expenses.

savic04 · 24-02-2011 3:31pm

the bridge is good if your going from Tramore to Dublin or that direction...
but we didnt need it, not at the moment..

The road is Dublin is superb!! but the bridge in that area wasnt a great idea, most people living in Waterford city dont need to use it and thats the problem.

I know people who travel to work in the IDA from the new ross, Co Kilkenny area and they use it but not every day due to the cost

Bards · 24-02-2011 3:32pm

Boskowski wrote: »

A lot of the traffic is commuter traffic. For a commuter its simply too much to pay to add to ever rising petrol prices (for the most part due to tax/duty increases), motor tax etc.
The fact there isn't even the slightest bit of commuter/frequent user discount on the toll fees is outright scandalous.

there is a 10% reduction for Trip Cards

http://www.southlink.ie/gpage3.html

rayc · 24-02-2011 3:33pm

wellboytoo wrote: »

@rayc, I agree the article is about the by pass only , but there is an intrinsic link between the two of them, and Ireland Inc were masters at building part of a roadway and dumping all the traffic on to a boreen then, in this case it was finished properly. So again you cannot divide the two parts as they have to be viewed as a whole.

What I meant here is that the M9 is not the issue, the toll bridge is. The M9 is irrelevant to the issues with the toll-bridge so i don't think there's any point discussing it. I think the article is right in that there is a problem with the toll bridge, but I don't think it's a 'white elephant'. The bridge is a great piece of infrastructure that can, and hopefully will be used to it's full potential. In fact I'd argue that more press should be given locally to the issues so that we can have them addressed. I for one would love to use the bridge more but there are a number of reasons I don't, and these are what we should be focusing on.

Clearly the toll is the biggest one, especially now with the recession. However as pointed out that can't be properly discussed until we know the arrangement between the toll operators and the NRA. The operator have no incentive to drop the toll if they are already being paid by the government.

On the other hand, the speed limit on the ORR definitely stops me from travelling from my house in ardkeen to the bridge via the ORR. Also upgrading of the quays to discourage traffic (and promote pedestrian traffic) are what the city council should be looking at (and are looking at I believe).

Boskowski · 24-02-2011 3:36pm

Bards wrote: »

there is a 10% reduction for Trip Cards

http://www.southlink.ie/gpage3.html

Fair enough thanks, but for a commuter a 10% reduction is not near enough of an incentive.

It's only your reward for coorperating with a cost savings measure, it's by no means a frequent user discount. Frequent user discount would have to be in the region of 50%.

STIG83 · 24-02-2011 3:53pm

thomasm wrote: »

Out of curosity how many more people would use the bridge if the toll was €1.00, I know I would. They need to simply make it more attractive cost wise

I could see more people using it at that price, if a trial run was done at that price it be interesting to see would more people use it than they do now.

fricatus · 24-02-2011 4:02pm

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I'd pay €5 to avoid the old Waterford to Kilkenny road.

Best addition to Waterford in 20yrs.

Just for clarity, this thread is not about the M9 between Waterford and Dublin. It's about the bypass (Kilmeaden to Slieverue) including the new toll bridge.

STIG83 · 24-02-2011 4:08pm

I have always said to myself you are better off paying the toll than to be stuck trying to get through the city wasting petrol or diesel especially in rush hour traffic.

calvin_zola · 24-02-2011 4:51pm

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I think the singage comming from Cork and Dublin is useless. Visitors have rang us when they have ended up in town because the didn't understand the signage.

As is the signage from Waterford city, drivers are 50mts from the roundabout at Grannagh before there is a sign for the bypass. They must know there is a problem because they put electronic signs up, but you have to be driving very slowly to read these signs fully.

You know yourself if its been a while since you visited a place and you try a new road and get confused, 1st thing you do is divert back to the road you know.

Do you know which part of Waterford is Waterford South or North?

Personally I use the bridge about once a week, especially if I'm going from the limerick Road to Tramore at peak times but to be honest at 11am on a week day its faster to go accross the bridge , up Carrigpherish, out by B&Q and around by the ring road, but the speed limit does put me off as I just get permenatly over-taken.

it would have made more sense if they had made the signs Waterford City and West Waterford because alot of visitors coming to Kilmeaden etc just use the old route becasue it dosen't twig with tem to follow the Cork route

calvin_zola · 24-02-2011 4:52pm

thomasm wrote: »

Out of curosity how many more people would use the bridge if the toll was €1.00, I know I would. They need to simply make it more attractive cost wise

I agree, or do multitrips for business frequent travellers, better priced than the 10% on offer

wellbutty · 24-02-2011 5:36pm

rayc wrote: »

On the other hand, the speed limit on the ORR definitely stops me from travelling from my house in ardkeen to the bridge via the ORR. Also upgrading of the quays to discourage traffic (and promote pedestrian traffic) are what the city council should be looking at (and are looking at I believe).

This is the reason I rarely use it, if you ask people for money, you must give them something back...and this "something" needs to be time. Having such a slow speed limit on the ORR makes the bridge punishing not rewarding. I think even at 50 cents it will struggle unless it's more accessible.

Joey leBlanc · 24-02-2011 5:36pm

fricatus wrote: »

Just for clarity, this thread is not about the M9 between Waterford and Dublin. It's about the bypass (Kilmeaden to Slieverue) including the new toll bridge.

Thanks for clarifying the matter pedantic pete :rolleyes:

The Failed Waterford Bypass and Toll System

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