[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Pete_Cavan

First of all, if we sell off electricity generating assests it is not necessarily to MNCs.

Prices would be reduced through competition. All producers would be selling the extact same product through the same national grid so therefore they are competing on price alone (there are no connection fees as you are already connected to the grid and nobodies electricity is superior quality to anyone else). The only way for the private companies to gain customers is to reduce their prices.

Most companies of such sizes end up in MNC hands, Eircom and UPC for example. I have no problem with MNCs coming into to create a new company that will compete with existing national ones.

ESB Customer Supply should be retained and the government should issue licence for new Customer Supply providers such as Bord Gais and Airtricity. I have no prob with another semi-state body entering into other markets. For example Esat were dead against the ESB getting a mobile licence purely because it was a semi-state body. Semi-state bodies, local companies and MNC should be able to compete in the one market.

[telekon]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Lets sell of the NSO first.

Agreed.

[Pete_Cavan]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Most companies of such sizes end up in MNC hands, Eircom and UPC for example. I have no problem with MNCs coming into to create a new company that will compete with existing national ones.

ESB Customer Supply should be retained and the government should issue licence for new Customer Supply providers such as Bord Gais and Airtricity. I have no prob with another semi-state body entering into other markets. For example Esat were dead against the ESB getting a mobile licence purely because it was a semi-state body. Semi-state bodies, local companies and MNC should be able to compete in the one market.

State, or semi-state companies should be allowed to compete in the market if they wish, but they should not be allowed to dominate it.

[Monty Burnz]

Originally Posted by Elmo

There is nothing wrong with earning money. Perhaps the Country should buy CRH, we seem obsessed with owning property and the loans of builders. You might have picked a non-building related company like Communicorp.

Semi-state companies also employ 10 of thousands in this state.

But here's the thing - time after time, it's been proved that the state is no good at running businesses. And the closer you are to government, the worse run you are. Hence FAS is a total shambles, whereas ESB is actually pretty well run - but still not as well run as it would be outside state hands.

I would encourage you to look up non-ideological sources of info as to why state-owned companies are not as efficient as private companies. I've worked in both, and have seen it first hand.

[thewing]

Semi-state companies are not allowed to dominate the market - the CER ensures this

ESB does not currently set it's prices - the CER does.

The problem does not lie with what you would perceive as bloated semi-state - but bad governance through poor regulation

Time and again we have seen poor regulation in this country - financial, telecoms and now energy.

You only sell the family silver once....

[Monty Burnz]

Originally Posted by thewing

You only sell the family silver once....

And you should sell it if it isn't doing you any good. The big question is would the money be used wisely when the silver is cashed in. The treatment of the NPRF (which should be sacrosanct) gives me reason to doubt.

[nesf]

Originally Posted by thewing

Pete_Cavan - take it your favourite paper is the Independent

Don't personalise the discussion please. Play the ball not the man etc. i.e. drop the first line of your post, everything else was fine.

[thewing]

@Monty

Think you answered the question there as far as the NPRF goes

In relation to doing any good - semi-states pay a dividend to the government whilst maintaining a key infrastructural asset - that's not exactly no good?

This is the next political punch bag after the public service, and will be very much in focus when the McCarthy report is released early in the life of a new Govt....

[Monty Burnz]

Originally Posted by thewing

In relation to doing any good - semi-states pay a dividend to the government whilst maintaining a key infrastructural asset - that's not exactly no good?

It's some good. The question is, is it the most good? I posted earlier about the dividend - 'a' dividend doesn't mean much. Is it value for money? What is the ROCE, etc.? How does it compare to industry norms?

That will give us an idea as to whether we are really getting the return from our semi-states that we should, and whether we would be better off cashing them in and letting someone else run them more efficiently.

[thewing]

I don't think this will happen as govt through the CER dictates to a large degree the investments that get made e.g. wind etc.

If a private company controlled this, they would to a large extent tell the govt to fup off - and then weaken any govts hand in meeting Kyoto carbon agreements etc which come with massive penalties if not met further down the road.

It's not simply a case of 'sell off bord gais, esb, coillte etc' - govt still retains control of energy market, forestry policies etc by holding on to them.

In terms of ROCE - government doesn't put any money in now, and gets a return
If they sold, there would be no more dividend, with the cash most likely gone to Roman Abramovich and the rest of our bondholders.....

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by telekon

Agreed.

Sell the Museums

[Monty Burnz]

Originally Posted by thewing

In terms of ROCE - government doesn't put any money in now, and gets a return
If they sold, there would be no more dividend.

Yeah, but it's irrelevant that the government is putting in no more money - the point is what return is the ESB making on the assets at its disposal?

And the 'dividend' thing again - I'll say it one more time 'a' dividend means nothing. How much of a dividend is it compared to what the company should be making in free cash flow?

I've a question for you: if you give me a thousand euros I will give you a dividend every year from now until the end of time. Are you getting value for money?

[Monty Burnz]

The national grid network will stay in public ownership according to the FG plan. There's a link to it on page one of the thread if anyone actually wants to know what they are talking about before joining in.

[thewing]

People here were talking about flogging the lot

I know that the want to retain control of the network.

Your thousand euro anecdote is flawed - once I take back the thousand euros, and give it to someone else I owe money, I no longer will have any money.

If you want to increase the dividend, then maybe it's time to take more control of semi-states.

I think people are blissfully unaware of the regulator's influence on prices etc over the past 10 years. But shur let's flog all our assets and see who is right in the long term....

[donkey balls]

Originally Posted by Monty Burnz

It's some good. The question is, is it the most good? I posted earlier about the dividend - 'a' dividend doesn't mean much. Is it value for money? What is the ROCE, etc.? How does it compare to industry norms?

That will give us an idea as to whether we are really getting the return from our semi-states that we should, and whether we would be better off cashing them in and letting someone else run them more efficiently.

Afaik the ESB is run efficently I know for a fact there transport ops is mainly contracted out to subbies,So just say a MNC takes over sections of the company how will they reduce costs? after all the employees will be TUPE hence no wage reductions not unless there made redundant which would cost the company a few $$$$ if the staff have been around a while.
I have personnely seeing a large MNC take over a contract from another MNC and make a complete balls of it,From experience if you pay your staff crap and treat them the same your not going get far peanuts&monkies spring to mind.