[RoyMcC]

There have to be people that look at this forum that are NOT runners/triathletes, surely? If so then they must, in time, realise that there's nothing for them here. So, in the faint hope that this thread won't drop like a stone (as did the last one on shot putt about 18 months ago) let's be having you! Throwers, coaches, put your hands up.

Are you a competitive thrower? Do you coach throws? Are you in fact Dan Kennedy, Bart Rogers, Ailish O'Brien, Dave Sweeney or Phil Conway (those coaches I know in the Dublin area.) What do you make of the standard of throwing in Ireland, the facilities, interest amongst young athletes? Is there a big regional difference?

Come on, there's a lot more to athletics than you'd guess from the threads on this forum. Let's keep this thread on top

[ecoli]

Originally Posted by RoyMcC

There have to be people that look at this forum that are NOT runners/triathletes, surely? If so then they must, in time, realise that there's nothing for them here. So, in the faint hope that this thread won't drop like a stone (as did the last one on shot putt about 18 months ago) let's be having you! Throwers, coaches, put your hands up.

Are you a competitive thrower? Do you coach throws? Are you in fact Dan Kennedy, Bart Rogers, Ailish O'Brien, Dave Sweeney or Phil Conway (those coaches I know in the Dublin area.) What do you make of the standard of throwing in Ireland, the facilities, interest amongst young athletes? Is there a big regional difference?

Come on, there's a lot more to athletics than you'd guess from the threads on this forum. Let's keep this thread on top

Took a course with Bart before. I will admit before the course I was under the assumption that strength was the primary factor in these events. When I was opened up to the disciplines i was shocked to see how much technique can improve you.
Regarding the throws events i think in spite of what seem to be declining standards the women's hammer is one that we seem to have a good crop of talented juniors who are ready take up the mantle from O Keefe. 3 of the 4 top ranked women of last year were in fact 20 or younger. Likewise in the discuss 2 of the top three were of the same age and also the shot with the top three being junior
Perhaps we could be in for a treat over this generation and see a resurgence in throwing events (atleast in the womens side)?

[a_non_a_mouse]

facilities are terrible for throwers.
I almost cry sometimes when I see clips on youtube etc of people training indoor with multiple nets for throws etc.
Its not something most young throwers in Ireland have access to.
Its hard to work on technique when your hands are freezing and the sector is wet/icy. (yes, I know you have to make to with what you have and believe me, I done some sessions in very unusual places over the years!)

Its hard to find places to throw hammer and discus, and the better the athlete the harder it is, distances climb and so does the weight being thrown.
Not too many places where you can throw a 4kg+ hammer 50m+ in safety.
Javelin really needs tartan type surface for runup and again safety is a big issue here. Its hard for good throwers to train even during regular club training times, the risk of killing poor 7 year old Mary/Johnny who runs across the infield is too high.
Standard of coaching is also patchy.....you get pockets of talent coming through with the old exception. Access to quality coaches is huge, you hear many reasons why kids drop out of athletes, one of the reasons I believe is that, kids get stuck at a certain level and when they see no improvement they drift to other sports. I believe the interest is there for the throws but not enough exposure to good quality coaches. (I mean did Belvedere just happen to attract more than its fair share of hammer throwers over the years, or did it just get its fair share but did a much better job of training the kids and keeping them in the sport?)
I know the regional squads and the national throws squads are trying and money is obviously a factor but there is a long way to go.
there should really be much more of these sessions and they need to ensure that they have the best coaches available for these sessions.
Also, I believe the carding standards don't encourage our throwers enough.
I could be corrected, but I don't think there is any juvenile/junior athlete who has carding standard in the shot, there is i think 1 in the discus and about 6/8 in the hammer.
I think they should shave just a little off for shot/discus to give people something to at least aim for...at the moment, its a bit too aspiration for most.
I see a whole bunch of good male hammer throwers, most of who are in their last year as junior in 2011, I'm hoping some of them make the breakthrough at senior level and yes there is some talent on the female hammer also, so hopefully we will have someone pushing EOK.

[madon]

I threw shot years ago- started as I was looking for a medal in county championships- ended up I was alright at it and went on to qualify to the all irelands a few years in a row and school championships etc.
I was lucky too to have a coach from another local club happy to help with teaching me technique etc. as the club I was in was pretty new and didn't have a coach for field events.
The reason I stopped throwing and could be the reason why a lot of teenage girls stop is because I got to the age where I needed to build up muscle to progress and its one thing a teenage girl does not want to do.

[donothoponpop]

Originally Posted by RoyMcC

There have to be people that look at this forum that are NOT runners/triathletes, surely? If so then they must, in time, realise that there's nothing for them here. So, in the faint hope that this thread won't drop like a stone (as did the last one on shot putt about 18 months ago) let's be having you! Throwers, coaches, put your hands up.

Are you a competitive thrower? Do you coach throws? Are you in fact Dan Kennedy, Bart Rogers, Ailish O'Brien, Dave Sweeney or Phil Conway (those coaches I know in the Dublin area.) What do you make of the standard of throwing in Ireland, the facilities, interest amongst young athletes? Is there a big regional difference?

Come on, there's a lot more to athletics than you'd guess from the threads on this forum. Let's keep this thread on top

This forum is an umbrella for T&F on Boards too- if you feel its not working for athletics, then we need to do something proactive about that. Perhaps a dedicated T&F sticky pointing to the best threads? Or any other ideas- basically the moderators here are open to any ideas on how best to increase the readership on the athletics part of the forum, its certainly something that needs to be pushed a bit (an fair play to Roy for getting the ball rolling).

[RoyMcC]

Originally Posted by ecoli

When I was opened up to the disciplines i was shocked to see how much technique can improve you.

Indeed, and too few athletes have the patience to accept that they'll only succeed long term by allying technique to conditioning.

Originally Posted by ecoli

Perhaps we could be in for a treat over this generation and see a resurgence in throwing events (atleast in the womens side)?

Let's hope so. The standard at the national championships in 2009 was woeful to put it kindly.

[RoyMcC]

Cracking post a_non_a_mouse, thank you.

Originally Posted by a_non_a_mouse

facilities are terrible for throwers.
I almost cry sometimes when I see clips on youtube etc of people training indoor with multiple nets for throws etc.
Its not something most young throwers in Ireland have access to.
Its hard to work on technique when your hands are freezing and the sector is wet/icy. (yes, I know you have to make to with what you have and believe me, I done some sessions in very unusual places over the years!).

I don't know - the main tracks I know (Santry, Irishtown, Tullamore, UCC) have reasonable circles/runways. But it's unusual to find anyone using them. Agreed the Irish/British weather conspires against us and one can only dream of training in warm, dry conditions all year. But it didn't stop Sheridan, Callaghan, Conway, McHugh, O'Keefe etc from reaching world standard.

Originally Posted by a_non_a_mouse

Its hard for good throwers to train even during regular club training times, the risk of killing poor 7 year old Mary/Johnny who runs across the infield is too high.

Bloomin' runners eh. If they got used to having javs flying across the infield maybe it wouldn't happen.

Originally Posted by a_non_a_mouse

Access to quality coaches is huge, you hear many reasons why kids drop out of athletes, one of the reasons I believe is that, kids get stuck at a certain level and when they see no improvement they drift to other sports. I believe the interest is there for the throws but not enough exposure to good quality coaches.

I believe that there is enough quality coaching there but somehow it's not producing results. But the same can be said of GB where even they, with infinitely more resources, are struggling badly at world level.

Originally Posted by a_non_a_mouse

(I mean did Belvedere just happen to attract more than its fair share of hammer throwers over the years, or did it just get its fair share but did a much better job of training the kids and keeping them in the sport?)

Phil Conway was, until recently, a teacher at Belvedere and therefore had a captive audience

Originally Posted by a_non_a_mouse

I think they should shave just a little off for shot/discus to give people something to at least aim for...at the moment, its a bit too aspiration for most.
I see a whole bunch of good male hammer throwers, most of who are in their last year as junior in 2011, I'm hoping some of them make the breakthrough at senior level and yes there is some talent on the female hammer also, so hopefully we will have someone pushing EOK.

Great - there seems to be some good development work going on, as there is in GB. Somehow the British Isles have fallen way off the standard in the last 30 years.

[RoyMcC]

Originally Posted by madon

The reason I stopped throwing and could be the reason why a lot of teenage girls stop is because I got to the age where I needed to build up muscle to progress and its one thing a teenage girl does not want to do.

Good point, but how things have changed in that respect. I think many people still have this image of the Soviet women throwers who probably built motorways for a living Take a look these days and there's far more of an emphasis on all-round athleticism and speed. You won't find a better example than Anita White in that respect.

madon you could have been a champ!

[RoyMcC]

Originally Posted by donothoponpop

This forum is an umbrella for T&F on Boards too- if you feel its not working for athletics, then we need to do something proactive about that. Perhaps a dedicated T&F sticky pointing to the best threads? Or any other ideas- basically the moderators here are open to any ideas on how best to increase the readership on the athletics part of the forum, its certainly something that needs to be pushed a bit (an fair play to Roy for getting the ball rolling).

Thanks donothoponpop, but it's up to the field eventers themselves to prove that they have a voice.

[stupidrobot]

Wow, a throws thread, never thought I'd see one of these! I met Eamon Coughlin briefly last year, he asked me what I did, I think he thought I was a runner. I said "I'm afraid I'm a thrower", he replied jokingly that there was not need to be sorry but sometimes you almost feel like there is!

a_non_a_mouse is spot on basicly. Two petitions were set up after the circle in Santry was put down. (For those who don't know) There is a sector in the hammer and discus events that the implement must land within when thrown. The circle was "aimed" in the wrong direction and the left hand sector line met the track about 50m out the field. Judges stood in the circle and made throwers wait for runners to pass during national championships for fear of hitting them and one athlete landed a hammer near one of long jump pits once. You can imagine Eileen O'Keefe chipping 70m, quite easy for her to land the hammer in one of the lanes. Added to that the circle was covered in leveling compond, ie pure ice. It rained during one competition and all the discus throwers protested by refusing to throw, it was suicide to try to turn in.
Athlone has excellent facilities but when the Dr. Pat O'Callaghan Cup was held there last year we had trouble with the cage, the netting droops towards the centre at the top and unless you hit it dead down the middle the handle of the hammer would hit off or even get stuck in the netting. To correct this most of the netting had to be taken down!

Coaching is boardline nonexistant in certain areas. I mentioned once that there is not a single coach in the country capable of teaching rotational shot putt. I'm involved with the Irish Throwers Club and get lots of emails looking for Javelin coaches. Unless they live near Dan Kennedy there is little I can advise them on.
Very few athletes have, to date, stayed in the sport full time beyond Junior level which means we have a very small pool of people who have the ability to coach. People like Dan Kennedy and Phil Conway have done unbelievable work but can't be expected to bring the entire country forward on their own. Coaching is deffinatly the area we are lacking most in.

Phil Conway and George Eyres have done great work in bringing through the current batch of junior men's hammer throwers, especially Conal Campion and Killian Barry. Conway turned Belvedere into a production line for throwers, basicly recruiting the most suited out of the rugby teams to do a bit of T&F during the rugby off season. I competed at senior schools level against Cian Healy in the shot but I think he only did one year of clubs, where as players like Podge White eventually went over fully into the throws. They were getting the techinque training from one of the top minds in the country but getting the speed and strength training from rugby, elements which are ignored in training by most other throws coaches. Few coaches in the throws know anything about strength training and there isn't really any place they can learn about the specific types of strength required for different throws, though I think that Phil, George and the AAI Throws Squad put on a day about it last year.

In general, in isolated areas we are doing fantastic. But we have to consider how many great throwers are falling by the wayside in other parts of the country for want of coaching. Rant over, sorry for its length!

[RoyMcC]

Good post from an active thrower! See, they do exist

Afaik they still haven't realigned that circle in Santry (I can't think that it's a big job) so the hammer throwers are relegated to the bog beyond the car park.

stupidrobot you could push javelin people towards Bart (Clonliffe) or Dave Sweeney (Bray?) who are excellent. I don't know what the expertise is like down the country though.

Certainly a talented coach can make a dramatic difference. As a_non_a_mouse said earlier, if an athlete ceases to improve then they will lose interest. The good, trained coach will have the know-how to be able to pick up an 'ok' athlete (at any event) and to bring them on towards their potential.

One would hope that the squads system would start producing shortly, fingers crossed.

[madon]

Originally Posted by RoyMcC

Good point, but how things have changed in that respect. I think many people still have this image of the Soviet women throwers who probably built motorways for a living Take a look these days and there's far more of an emphasis on all-round athleticism and speed. You won't find a better example than Anita White in that respect.

madon you could have been a champ!

I think I was a few years out of throwing and the international throwers started getting smaller- I was born too early!

I don't know about champ- you have my interest back in it though. I might have to visit the folks and brush off the circle my Dad cemented in the back garden!

[multisport]

How much of throwing technique is common across the disciplines?

follow on question....

how much could the technique from shot/javelin/etc be applied to other throwing sports, such as canoepolo or olympic handball.

Or even darts? given that someone said to me once that darts is the drinking mans javelin. Tongue coming out through cheek on this.

[RoyMcC]

Originally Posted by multisport

How much of throwing technique is common across the disciplines?

follow on question....

how much could the technique from shot/javelin/etc be applied to other throwing sports, such as canoepolo or olympic handball.

Or even darts? given that someone said to me once that darts is the drinking mans javelin. Tongue coming out through cheek on this.

I'll leave the last one for the humourists on here

All four throws have the commonality that the power comes not from the arm but from the legs which, through good technique, transfer that power up through the body and arm to release the implement at the optimum speed and angle. Anyone with practice and without being overly strong can deliver a reasonable shot, discus or hammer.

Javelin is an exception where, without a natural strong and 'fast' throwing arm, one is unlikely to be successful.

I had to Google canoeball - the throw is all in the arm so a good javelin thrower could transfer their delivery technique with some success I'd say, though obviously minus the legwork. Handball? That was a 'hitting' game when I was at school, admittedly many years ago.

[multisport]

for anyone else who's not familiar with canoepolo... most of ye I guess

http://canoepolo.sportpicsuk.com/g14153.html has a few pics from the 2010 world champs in Milan.

Olympic handball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TzIlW9p3a8 and http://www.olympichandball.org/