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13-08-2010, 11:41   #16
troubleshooter
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Originally Posted by Morlar View Post
Warrenpoint /Mountbatten was a massive coup and I believe touted as revenge for bloody sunday.

Don't mean to 'derail' the thread but I thought this one also technically impressive :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_...gue_checkpoint



There was also a technically impressive baader meinhoff one from the early 1970's which involved a bicycle parked at a strategic point on the road. The satchel on the bicycle contained bomb that held a sheet of thick metal and a shapecharge on the other side. This was detonated as an armoured limousine drove past it fired like a projectile and entered the passenger armoured door of the vehicle killing all inside including it's intended target. For it's time and all things considered that was a very capable incident that was probably not indicative of their general abilities. I have never seen an account of that one in print - only in a documentary shown in the mid-late 90's.


There is no way the PIRA would have known they were hitting the Paras, the route that day was random, it could have been the Queens own Highlanders or another unit deployed in the area that day travelling on that road. They got lucky with hitting the Paras as a target.

And while it was a propaganda victory for them and the 20% of Catholics in border areas who were supporters, it alienated the vast majority even more, in terms of them not supporting terrorism.

Last edited by troubleshooter; 13-08-2010 at 11:48.
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13-08-2010, 11:46   #17
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There is no way the PIRA would have known they were hitting the Paras, the route that day was random, it could have been the Queens own Highlanders or another unit deployed in the area that day travelling on that road. They got lucky with hitting the Paras as a target.
I said it was touted as being revenge for bloody sunday. Which it was. If they had hit someone else then it possibly wouldn't have been but they did and it was.

I just found something on the Baader Meinhof one - it was not the 1970's after all ;

http://u2r2h.blogspot.com/2008/09/ra...nhof-gang.html

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Alfred Herrhausen (30 January 1930 - 30 November 1989) was a German banker and Chairman of Deutsche Bank. From 1971 onwards he was a member of the bank's board of directors.

Herrhausen fell victim to a sophisticated roadside bomb shortly after leaving his home in Bad Homburg on 30 November 1989. He was being chauffeured to work in his armoured Mercedes-Benz, with bodyguards in both a lead vehicle and another following behind. The bomb had been hidden in a saddle bag on a bicycle next to the road that the assassins knew Herrhausen would be traveling in his three-car convoy. In the bag was a 20 kg bomb that was detonated when Herrhausen's car interrupted a beam of infrared light as it passed the bicycle. The bomb and its triggering mechanism were quite sophisticated. The bomb targeted the most vulnerable area of Herrhausen's car—the door where he was sitting—and required split-second timing to overcome the car's special armour plating. The bomb utilized a Misznay-Schardin mechanism. A copper plate, placed between the explosive and the target, was deformed and projected by the force of the explosion. It is unlikely that this improvised explosive device had the precise engineering required to form the liner into a more effective slug or "carrot" shape (as in a shaped charge or an EFP)[citation needed] but in any case, the detonation resulted in a mass of copper being projected toward the car at a speed of nearly two kilometers per second, effectively penetrating the armoured Mercedes. Herrhausen's legs were severed and he bled to death.

No one has ever been charged with the murder. For a long time, the German federal prosecutor office listed Andrea Klump and Christoph Seidler of the Red Army Faction as the only suspects. The Federal Criminal Police Office (Germany) presented a chief witness Siegfried Nonne who later retracted his statements in which he claimed to have sheltered four terrorists in his home. His half-brother Hugo Föller (died 23 January 1992) furthermore declared that no other persons had been at the flat at the time. German Television on 1. July 1992 broadcast Nonne's explanations how he was coached and threatened by the Verfassungsschutz, the German internal intelligence agency, to become the main witness. In 2004 the federal prosecutor dropped the charges against the Red Army Faction; the investigation was to continue without naming a suspect.
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13-08-2010, 11:52   #18
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As I said they got lucky with hitting the Paras, revenge for bloody sunday? No thats just more of their lies, they planted bombs and targeted the army and civilians before bloody sunday.

They never knew they were targetting the paras, so their claim the action was planned in revenge for bloody sunday cant be true.

One of the bombers later blew himself up with his own bomb, poetic justice I suppose.

According to a Para who survived 2 Irish lads were serving alongside that day.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...fset=24&page=3

"Among his comrades on the patrol were two young Irishmen, he recalls; one a Protestant, and the other a Roman Catholic. “So it’s difficult for me to feel anger or hate.”

Came across this.


Gardai are accused of destroying evidence which could have convicted the IRA men who killed 18 soldiers at Narrow Water in 1979. "The bombing at Warrenpoint was the worst single casualty toll sustained by the Army during the Troubles. A retired senior forensics officer in the Republic has gone - on record over his deep concerns that two IRA men who allegedly triggered the two 800 lb bombs were never charged because there was substantial scientific evidence gathered from the scene. Jim Donovan said there was more forensic evidence than was required to convict the bomber behind the killing of Lord Mountbatten and three others on the same day, August 27,1979. The IRA attacked an Army convoy from the Republic side of Carlingford Lough at Narrow Water. A bomb was detonated on the Ulster side, killing six soldiers. A gun battle then raged and as soldiers took cover a second device went off killing another half-a-dozen men. The two IRA men one of whom was Brendan Burns, later killed in 1988 when a bomb he was handling went off-were stopped by gardai heading away from Narrow Water on a motorcycle. Later a search of the area is believed to have found the IRA vantage point and discarded cigarette butts and lemonade bottles. These items and the bike were vital to forensics. A source said: "Burns and (his accomplice) were arrested on the southern side. They were taken in for questioning and that's when the forensics was matched on them. "There were lemonade bottles found at the scene with their fingerprints on them as well, and found on the bombers' clothing and the motorbike were traces of ammonium nitrate and firearms residue. "The evidence was held in Dundalk Garda station until allegedly renovations were taking place and it was literally dumped in a skip. "They had actually held the bike as evidence and it was dumped too. "For a senior forensics officer to come out and openly question this suggests something was seriously wrong there." The IRA men at Narrow Water went on to be involved in further atrocities. It is feared that the garda who was believed to be the IRA's senior link in Co Louth was involved in the Narrow Water investigation and was involved in the cover-up.

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13-08-2010, 11:53   #19
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Well the context in which Warrenpoint happened was in revenge for Bloody Sunday when the murdering ba$tards of the parachute regiment murdered 13 civil rights marchers, Mountbatten was for giving the Officer in command that day an OBE .

One of the main men behind the attacks was legedary South Armagh IRA commander Brendan Burns. He with another man standing guard, triggerd the bombs from the Louth side of the border and escaped to Dundalk on a motorbike. The Provos had made use of TV repair techs around the country to use remote control devices for model aeroplanes etc to trigger the bombs.

The first bomb was hidden in a trailer full of hay which had been left there for several days. How the IRA knew what time a patrol would be passing at that time I cannot say, obviously their formidable spy system was on the ball. It became quite a common tatic for the IRA to have 2 bombs ready, one to obviously inflict on the passing patrol or whatever, and then sometimes a 2nd one to get the British forces who turned up in the clear up operation. The second bomb was hidden in milk churns near an entrance to a farm, the IRA had suspected that the survivng brits would take cover behind the entrances stone walls and hence detonated the 2nd bomb as this was exactly how they had reacted.

BTW, it was the biggest single loss of life inflicted on the Brit forces in Ireland since the Kilmicheal ambush in 1920.

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13-08-2010, 12:07   #20
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Well the context in which Warrenpoint happened was in revenge for Bloody Sunday when the murdering ba$tards of the parachute regiment murdered 13 civil rights marchers, Mountbatten was for giving the Officer in command that day an OBE .

One of the main men behind the attacks was legedary South Armagh IRA commander Brendan Burns. He with another man standing guard, triggerd the bombs from the Louth side of the border and escaped to Dundalk on a motorbike. The Provos had made use of TV repair techs around the country to use remote control devices for model aeroplanes etc to trigger the bombs.

The first bomb was hidden in a trailer full of hay which had been left there for several days. How the IRA knew what time a patrol would be passing at that time I cannot say, obviously their formidable spy system was on the ball. It became quite a common tatic for the IRA to have 2 bombs ready, one to obviously inflict on the passing patrol or whatever, and then sometimes a 2nd one to get the British forces who turned up in the clear up operation.

BTW, it was the biggest single loss of life inflicted on the Brit forces in Ireland since the Kilmicheal ambush in 1920.

The lie that the CO of the Paras got an OBE for bloody sunday has been proven as a lie on here before as you know, but dont let that get in the way of repeating it.

The PIRA did not know the time a unit would pass by or this is another lie, units changed times and routes.

The problem was there were only a few routes into Newry.

The PIRA controlled most of the TV repair shops in the south, this is true.

Obviously someone must have turned a blind eye.

And lets not forget 3 children and an 80yr old woman were blown up along with mountbatten by your heros.

Last edited by troubleshooter; 13-08-2010 at 12:10.
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13-08-2010, 12:13   #21
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And lets not forget 3 children and an 80yr old woman were blown up along with mountbatten by your heros.
Or the tourist shot dead by yours.

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13-08-2010, 12:26   #22
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Or the tourist shot dead by yours.

Shooting someone after a bomb goes off and ammunition is cooking off beacuse they are holding a fishing rod and in the confusion you mistakenly think they have detonated the bomb by remote control, ie that the fishing rod is an aeriel, is very tragic, but very different then planting a bomb in a boat watching 3 children and an 80 yr old woman get on board then detonating it.
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13-08-2010, 12:30   #23
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The lie that the CO of the Paras got an OBE for bloody sunday has been proven as a lie on here before as you know, but dont let that get in the way of repeating it.
A bit off topic, but total bollox as you know well, the CO at Bloody Sunday Derek Wilford was awarded an OBE in the Queens New Year's Honours List later that year. I suppose now though he'll tell us it was for humanitarianism or something

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The PIRA did not know the time a unit would pass by or this is another lie, units changed times and routes.

The problem was there were only a few routes into Newry.
Obviously the IRA knew a lot more about when the Brits would be passing that spot then you do. So now he's going to tell us bomb 1, bomb 2 and Mountbatten all going off within minutes of each other wasn't wasn't a coordinated operation ?
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13-08-2010, 12:33   #24
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If britain or the us armed forces had killed a target in this manner then militarily I think the term which would be used would be 'collateral damage'. Oh and I think you are forgetting that mounbatten was on that boat also.

What I think is that if you get killed by one side or another in a conflict then all the contextualising and excuse making and finger pointing (by advocates and supporters of either side) in the world is not going to make an awful lot of difference.
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13-08-2010, 12:38   #25
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didnt that tourist get slotted after the PIRA opened up with an MG from the Republic side of the narrow water and the BA returned fire? caught in the crossfire as such. i may be wrong. a spectacular for the PIRA,18 dead paras,but when you factor in the mountbaton hit that occured at the same time i dont think it did too much for popular support!
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Shooting someone after a bomb goes off and ammunition is cooking off beacuse they are holding a fishing rod and in the confusion you mistakenly think they have detonated the bomb by remote control, ie that the fishing rod is an aeriel, is very tragic, but very different then planting a bomb in a boat watching 3 children and an 80 yr old woman get on board then detonating it.
Yes the paras thought that they were under gun fire as the ammunition in the lorry was going off due to the fire caused by the explosion. The English civilian killed by the paras on the Irish side of the border by coincidence was the son of a coachman at Buckingham Palace. Not that this was the first or last civilain murder by the trigger happy Parachute regiment, however no OBE was given out of for this particuliar murder.

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13-08-2010, 12:47   #26
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A bit off topic, but total bollox as you know well, the CO at Bloody Sunday Derek Wilford was awarded an OBE in the Queens New Year's Honours List later that year. I suppose now though he'll tell us it was for humanitarianism or something
That really is twisting something to ones own means.

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13-08-2010, 12:49   #27
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If britain or the us armed forces had killed a target in this manner then militarily I think the term which would be used would be 'collateral damage'. Oh and I think you are forgetting that mounbatten was on that boat also.

What I think is that if you get killed by one side or another in a conflict then all the contextualising and excuse making and finger pointing (by advocates and supporters of either side) in the world is not going to make an awful lot of difference.
this thread IS starting to devolve into what the OP said he DIDN'T want it to get into. I've held my thoughts in check as I have some strong opinions on what I think of the PIRA, I'd suggest other people do the same and stick to the facts only. Getting into the justication game/condemnation game is going to get all of us nowhere.
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13-08-2010, 12:51   #28
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The problem was there were only a few routes into Newry.
I'm thinking that they picked a route that is used a lot, put a bomb on it, and another bomb nearby, and waited a while, until someone went by. If this was true, it would be a "huge victory", but not an "excellently planned and executed guerrilla attack", as clicking the trigger the moment someone goes by the bomb is hoping for the best. It's also risky, as the trigger men could be found before the bomb is denotated.
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13-08-2010, 12:52   #29
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Yes the paras thought that they were under gun fire as the ammunition in the lorry was going off due to the fire caused by the explosion. The English civilian killed by the paras on the Irish side of the border by coincidence was the son of a coachman at Buckingham Palace. Not that this was the first or last civilain murder by the trigger happy Parachute regiment, however no OBE was given out of for this particuliar murder.
It was an accidental death not a murder and getting facetious about it does not honour his memory. The paras didn't go "Oh look theres a civilian lets kill him", he was just a guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. The only murders that day were of the 18 BA soldiers.
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13-08-2010, 13:28   #30
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If britain or the us armed forces had killed a target in this manner then militarily I think the term which would be used would be 'collateral damage'. Oh and I think you are forgetting that mounbatten was on that boat also.

What I think is that if you get killed by one side or another in a conflict then all the contextualising and excuse making and finger pointing (by advocates and supporters of either side) in the world is not going to make an awful lot of difference.
If the bomber had not known that Mountbatten had company that day, then you could write it off as collaterol damage. the fact that he stood on the bank and watched the people on board the boat before detonating the bomb suggests that he went ahead knowing full well innocent people (and lets face it, other than being a member of the royal family, what crime had mountbatten commited?) were going to be killed, which to me makes it murder.
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