Boards.ie

Taxpayer · 29-04-2010, 01:17

Flar play to ya. I wish could do that.
That's what it's like in my business. The rent is mental and tax is higher than the rest of Europe but what hope have we got when people keep calling us rip offs and voting for FF?
We had to let three people go last week- we cant sustain the business because we still have to keep paying the overheads and offering sale prices because of German and UK discounters- who only employ a handul of people! I just get sad about Irish Music shops because that's part of our culture. I hope we're all wrong and they manage to survive or we'll all be writing songs in german before we know it... where we will try out gear then??

**rcaz** · 29-04-2010, 01:20

I don't mind paying a bit extra to keep a proper shop going, but a lot of shops give off the impression that they don't want your business. I know it used to be a lot worse with respect to customer service, but a lot of places still leave a lot to be desired. I work in a shop (off license), and the idea of making a customer feel even the slightest bit awkward in a shop is totally incomprehensible to me, let alone some of the customer service I've been on the receiving end of.

Taxpayer · 29-04-2010, 01:27

Yeah well that's ****ty. I can't stand arrogant sales people. But as I said earlier, I'm lucky because I've a good choice. I have to say though, I've never had a problem with a shop in Dublin- well there was one- Danfay, wouldn't let you touch anything -but they're closed down now, not surprisingly....

Demeyes · 29-04-2010, 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxpayer

Wow, well I've never had the problems you have man... but I have a choice of shops. I recently had to return an amp and it was replaced in 2 days, I got an apology call from the distributor and a free T shirt- and it was cheaper than Thomann....

I have a good choice of shops and I do buy things from one of them because they treat me well but I don't go out there to buy a new guitar - just strings/straps and picks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxpayer

Hey, before you buy next time- give them a shot........

My local shops don't stock a single electric guitar that I would be interested in buying and not a single amp I would buy either.

I don't have any problem with shops but there is a very good used market right now for buyers and add the online competition and it would be hard for shops to try and run their shops the same way they have for years. I think most are beginning to compete more now and offer better prices though.

Taxpayer · 29-04-2010, 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demeyes

I have a good choice of shops and I do buy things from one of them because they treat me well but I don't go out there to buy a new guitar - just strings/straps and picks.

I'm with El Pr0n on this- wild horses couldn't make me buy a guitar I haven't felt up- no way- not unless I needed it to smash up.

My local shops don't stock a single electric guitar that I would be interested in buying and not a single amp I would buy either.

What are you looking for? I reckon between all the shops in Dublin they pretty much have most brands and could probably get you specific models. If it's that niche it probably costs a fortune to stock anyway. I 've made too many expensive mistakes in the past, I'll buy nothing until I've tried it.

I don't have any problem with shops but there is a very good used market right now for buyers and add the online competition and it would be hard for shops to try and run their shops the same way they have for years. I think most are beginning to compete more now and offer better prices though.

I think so and for the sake of Irish stores and the industry here in general, I hope so...

Adyx · 29-04-2010, 01:49

There's one musical instrument shop here in Waterford. They stock only D'Addario .45 bass strings. (Occasionally I've also seen Ernie Balls in there). And they're a rip-off as well.

I'm not too worried about local prices as they do sometimes try to price-match with Thomann, but the lack of selection (and ignorance of staff) is very off-putting.

Taxpayer · 29-04-2010, 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adyx

There's one musical instrument shop here in Waterford. They stock only D'Addario .45 bass strings. (Occasionally I've also seen Ernie Balls in there). And they're a rip-off as well.

I'm not too worried about local prices as they do sometimes try to price-match with Thomann, but the lack of selection (and ignorance of staff) is very off-putting.

You should say something- that's not good enough of they want your business. I wouldn't blame you in the slightest for buying online.
I know Waltons and X Music have online stores- you should try one of them, then you're still buying from an Irish shop.... John at BSOM has Elixirs- not cheap but deadly and stay bright for ages.

Adyx · 29-04-2010, 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxpayer

You should say something- that's not good enough of they want your business. I wouldn't blame you in the slightest for buying online.
I know Waltons and X Music have online stores- you should try one of them, then you're still buying from an Irish shop.... John at BSOM has Elixirs- not cheap but deadly and stay bright for ages.

Ah but I don't use Ernie Ball strings either

Rotosounds/DR please!

I have given the local shop a lot of business too. We got our PA, mics, leads, lights etc off them. Our drummer gets most of his kit there too.

**Gaspode** · 29-04-2010, 08:30

Price, plain and simple. Why pay €200 for something here when it can be purchased for €130 online?
Having said that, I do regularly go to shops in Dublin and beyond to check out their gear, and if there's something I like I'll buy it. for a guitar or other instrument you need to feel it and play it to be sure, but for amps, lead, mikes, etc online is the way to go.

Companero · 29-04-2010, 08:45

Or something like that, then I'd keep it in Ireland, but more often than not it's a question of the Irish price being nearly 2 x the Thomann one. Simply not worth it.

As well as this , Dublin shops are almost always out of stock of what Im looking for. I already have as many guitars and amps as I need, so Im normally looking for something wierd: A double bass pickup or some such item, and Ive generally found that as far as supply goes, Irish shops are like that General Store in "O Brother Where Art Thou" - "I can order it in for ya from the mainland, it'll take about two weeks."

"Well aint this place a geographical oddity, two weeks from everywhere!"

Not to mention that Irish stores need to take a hint from American ones: Allow your customers to make you an offer, its not an insult, it's business.

evolutionqy7 · 29-04-2010, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxpayer

Hey I' not trying to make anyone feel bad, I voted no to the Lisbon treaty though! I just think we shoud support the Irish music industry. I work in a similar but unrelated business, and I could lose my job because of internet shopping. Half the time the customers don't even check our prices. I have spent hours demonstrating gear and they buy from the UK- and I work on commission....

thats cause most shops have a terrible selection! i go on the internet its cheaper and it has a bigger variety!

i go into a shop...20 albums with the same songs...seriously wtf

otherwise when i was looking to get my PA for djing one shop wanted to charge me 2000 for the whole lot...i go on ebay get them half as cheap and delivered to my door!

novarock · 29-04-2010, 09:20

two guitars that I have bought abroad - (im a lefty by the way

- American Fender Precision - this was the older model pre 2008, because of it being the older a shop in new york sold it to me for 500 euro. The same guitar has been hanging by its neck in musicmaker for two years - price €1645.

- Musicman Stingray - if I went into a shop in dublin and asked for a left handed stingray I would be laughed at. I have never seen one in this country, and if it was here you would be talking €2200 euro easily. its only €1500 from the UK.

So from two guitars bought abroad I saved myself €1800. Its common sense really. I do buy all my accessories here. A big thing that X-Music made the mistake on was not havign either the storage or capital to buy up 150 fenders instead of 10..

Strings.ie · 29-04-2010, 11:21

As an Irish based retailer I'll chip in on this one.

Music instrument retailers in past (pre internet) were used to 50% plus mark ups.
Many of the folks who have done this all their lives have found it difficult to come to terms with the reality of the current industry. Some folks simply refuse to compete and that is why some shops in Ireland are expensive. Their costs of running the business have not gone down 20-30% so why should their income?

On the other hand many of us realise the situation and have tried to compete.
Our (strings.ie) mark-ups range from under 10% up to 25% and sometimes 30%. I can think of only a handful of items we could get 50% on and get away with it.

The problem is, the consumer does not understand the realities of doing business in Ireland and instantly labels us a rip-off.

I occasionally get emails from customers about all this and I always try to explain the situation. In the old business model the manufacturer sets the price they sell to the distributors (wholesaler). The distributors then adds their bit + taxes and sells to the retailer. The retailer then adds his bit + taxes and that is the price the customer pays.

This should mean that all retailers are buying at the same (ish) price and any variation in the selling prices are down the the retailer.

Then came the internet and Thomann/similar. Thomann figured out that if they could sell enougth of something at 10% it was a viable business move. This is essentially known as under selling the product and devaluing its market value. While this is great for Thomann (the Tesco of M.I if you like) its bad news for all the small guys who now have their customers asking them to match Thomann's prices without anywhere near the volume of sales.
Thomann's next move was the swing their new found weight around and cut out the distributor and buy direct from the manufacturer and demand better prices based on the sheer amount they were able to shift.

We now see a clear distinction between some manufactures who have prostituted themselves to Thomann and others that have stood by their long term customer base.

There are products Thomann sell cheaper than we can buy them trade in Ireland. But on the other hand, brands like Ernie Ball who remained loyal to the customer base have set pricing and that's that. This means Thomann buy at the same price as we do and in this situation you will see we (strings.ie) are cheaper than Thomann for Ernie Ball electric strings.

That is the reality with the larger shops like Thomann.

Another area that really winds me up in this country is taxation. Vat is 21%. That instantly puts us as a 3.5% disadvantage to UK retailers. At the very least they should match it to the UK, our biggest trading partner.

Another one I often get is customers asking us to match prices from the US. Everything is cheaper in the US. The fact that petrol is a lot cheaper has large factor on manufacturing costs all the way through the chain. They also don't have Vat so that is 21% instantly knocked off not to mention the import duty. Then on top of all this manufacturers set the pricing geographically so US retailers can buy much cheaper than E.U based retailers.
It is simply not a fair playing field.

Again the government in Ireland does not help. I believe most parcels imported to Ireland from outside the E.U with a declared value of under €50 (maybe higher) go through the system without revenue being collected. While great for the consumer its just not fair for the retailer based in Ireland not to mention the millions lost in revenue.

Our business generates quite a lot of tax for the Irish government and we get nothing in return.
It may be great to buy your stuff from Thomann but none of that money goes to Ireland. None of the stock is sourced from Irish suppliers. This ultimately leads to less jobs and less taxes to provide your country with the much needed resources to make this place better. You may save personally but we all pay in the end.

Having said that, most good music shops in Ireland are only too happy to try and price match Thomann and others where possible. If we can get it and not make a loss we would love your business. But bear in mind that if a retailer cannot match Thomann's price it may not be because they are a rip off. In reality it just may not be viable to lose money.

We have quite a few customers in Europe but in our three years of trading not once have we had an order from Germany. It could be that Germany have Thomann and others so no need to buy outside the country but I would argue that Germany, and in my opinion France, are far more nationalistic than Ireland or the UK. The E.U is supposed to be an open market but having recently visited a friend trying to setup an Irish bar in France I was shocked when he told me how difficult he was finding it to source Guinness in France. He told me "they simply don't want you importing it". Now I may be jumping to conclusions but I noted 9 out of 10 cars in France are French.
Ultimately you have to wonder why Germany and France's economy's are in much better shape than ours. I note this forum still has a lovely big free advert for Thomann in form of a sticky

novarock · 29-04-2010, 12:36

In this modern internet age, every single business is going to suffer from being undercut by shopping online.

Unfortunately for the instrument retailers here, they wont be able to buy in bulk like the bigger shops online. The more they can buy up the more they can reduce the price by. X-Music should have a shop quarter the size and a huge warehouse. And they never pushed the online business as much as they should.

Another massive factor is the lack of options. Im not going to find what I want here. 3/4 of what I own, I would never have found in Ireland.

punchdrunk · 29-04-2010, 12:52

the fact you can't even buy a zvex pedal in an Irish bricks and mortar shop says alot,I mean the company has been around 15 years now? they're not even really boutique anymore they are mass production!

29-04-2010, 01:17	#16
Taxpayer Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 44 Adverts \| Friends	Foreign retailers Flar play to ya. I wish could do that. That's what it's like in my business. The rent is mental and tax is higher than the rest of Europe but what hope have we got when people keep calling us rip offs and voting for FF? We had to let three people go last week- we cant sustain the business because we still have to keep paying the overheads and offering sale prices because of German and UK discounters- who only employ a handul of people! I just get sad about Irish Music shops because that's part of our culture. I hope we're all wrong and they manage to survive or we'll all be writing songs in german before we know it... where we will try out gear then??

29-04-2010, 08:45	#25
Companero Registered User Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 61 Adverts \| Friends	If it was a question of a 20 % difference Or something like that, then I'd keep it in Ireland, but more often than not it's a question of the Irish price being nearly 2 x the Thomann one. Simply not worth it. As well as this , Dublin shops are almost always out of stock of what Im looking for. I already have as many guitars and amps as I need, so Im normally looking for something wierd: A double bass pickup or some such item, and Ive generally found that as far as supply goes, Irish shops are like that General Store in "O Brother Where Art Thou" - "I can order it in for ya from the mainland, it'll take about two weeks." "Well aint this place a geographical oddity, two weeks from everywhere!" Not to mention that Irish stores need to take a hint from American ones: Allow your customers to make you an offer, its not an insult, it's business.

29-04-2010, 11:21	#28
Strings.ie Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 215 Adverts \| Friends	As an Irish based retailer I'll chip in on this one. Music instrument retailers in past (pre internet) were used to 50% plus mark ups. Many of the folks who have done this all their lives have found it difficult to come to terms with the reality of the current industry. Some folks simply refuse to compete and that is why some shops in Ireland are expensive. Their costs of running the business have not gone down 20-30% so why should their income? On the other hand many of us realise the situation and have tried to compete. Our (strings.ie) mark-ups range from under 10% up to 25% and sometimes 30%. I can think of only a handful of items we could get 50% on and get away with it. The problem is, the consumer does not understand the realities of doing business in Ireland and instantly labels us a rip-off. I occasionally get emails from customers about all this and I always try to explain the situation. In the old business model the manufacturer sets the price they sell to the distributors (wholesaler). The distributors then adds their bit + taxes and sells to the retailer. The retailer then adds his bit + taxes and that is the price the customer pays. This should mean that all retailers are buying at the same (ish) price and any variation in the selling prices are down the the retailer. Then came the internet and Thomann/similar. Thomann figured out that if they could sell enougth of something at 10% it was a viable business move. This is essentially known as under selling the product and devaluing its market value. While this is great for Thomann (the Tesco of M.I if you like) its bad news for all the small guys who now have their customers asking them to match Thomann's prices without anywhere near the volume of sales. Thomann's next move was the swing their new found weight around and cut out the distributor and buy direct from the manufacturer and demand better prices based on the sheer amount they were able to shift. We now see a clear distinction between some manufactures who have prostituted themselves to Thomann and others that have stood by their long term customer base. There are products Thomann sell cheaper than we can buy them trade in Ireland. But on the other hand, brands like Ernie Ball who remained loyal to the customer base have set pricing and that's that. This means Thomann buy at the same price as we do and in this situation you will see we (strings.ie) are cheaper than Thomann for Ernie Ball electric strings. That is the reality with the larger shops like Thomann. Another area that really winds me up in this country is taxation. Vat is 21%. That instantly puts us as a 3.5% disadvantage to UK retailers. At the very least they should match it to the UK, our biggest trading partner. Another one I often get is customers asking us to match prices from the US. Everything is cheaper in the US. The fact that petrol is a lot cheaper has large factor on manufacturing costs all the way through the chain. They also don't have Vat so that is 21% instantly knocked off not to mention the import duty. Then on top of all this manufacturers set the pricing geographically so US retailers can buy much cheaper than E.U based retailers. It is simply not a fair playing field. Again the government in Ireland does not help. I believe most parcels imported to Ireland from outside the E.U with a declared value of under €50 (maybe higher) go through the system without revenue being collected. While great for the consumer its just not fair for the retailer based in Ireland not to mention the millions lost in revenue. Our business generates quite a lot of tax for the Irish government and we get nothing in return. It may be great to buy your stuff from Thomann but none of that money goes to Ireland. None of the stock is sourced from Irish suppliers. This ultimately leads to less jobs and less taxes to provide your country with the much needed resources to make this place better. You may save personally but we all pay in the end. Having said that, most good music shops in Ireland are only too happy to try and price match Thomann and others where possible. If we can get it and not make a loss we would love your business. But bear in mind that if a retailer cannot match Thomann's price it may not be because they are a rip off. In reality it just may not be viable to lose money. We have quite a few customers in Europe but in our three years of trading not once have we had an order from Germany. It could be that Germany have Thomann and others so no need to buy outside the country but I would argue that Germany, and in my opinion France, are far more nationalistic than Ireland or the UK. The E.U is supposed to be an open market but having recently visited a friend trying to setup an Irish bar in France I was shocked when he told me how difficult he was finding it to source Guinness in France. He told me "they simply don't want you importing it". Now I may be jumping to conclusions but I noted 9 out of 10 cars in France are French. Ultimately you have to wonder why Germany and France's economy's are in much better shape than ours. I note this forum still has a lovely big free advert for Thomann in form of a sticky Last edited by Strings.ie; 29-04-2010 at 19:33.

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29-04-2010, 01:20	#17
rcaz Moderator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Clontarf. The part that isn't made of plastic. Posts: 3,945 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Bands & Musicians Community, Music	I don't mind paying a bit extra to keep a proper shop going, but a lot of shops give off the impression that they don't want your business. I know it used to be a lot worse with respect to customer service, but a lot of places still leave a lot to be desired. I work in a shop (off license), and the idea of making a customer feel even the slightest bit awkward in a shop is totally incomprehensible to me, let alone some of the customer service I've been on the receiving end of.

29-04-2010, 01:27	#18
Taxpayer Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 44 Adverts \| Friends	Yeah well that's ****ty. I can't stand arrogant sales people. But as I said earlier, I'm lucky because I've a good choice. I have to say though, I've never had a problem with a shop in Dublin- well there was one- Danfay, wouldn't let you touch anything -but they're closed down now, not surprisingly....

29-04-2010, 01:49	#21
Adyx Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Waterford Posts: 2,234 Adverts \| Friends	There's one musical instrument shop here in Waterford. They stock only D'Addario .45 bass strings. (Occasionally I've also seen Ernie Balls in there). And they're a rip-off as well. I'm not too worried about local prices as they do sometimes try to price-match with Thomann, but the lack of selection (and ignorance of staff) is very off-putting.

29-04-2010, 08:30	#24
Gaspode Crudelis in Moderatio. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sean Sherlock's Licky End Posts: 4,655 Adverts \| Friends Mod: Band Promotion, Dublin 15	Price, plain and simple. Why pay €200 for something here when it can be purchased for €130 online? Having said that, I do regularly go to shops in Dublin and beyond to check out their gear, and if there's something I like I'll buy it. for a guitar or other instrument you need to feel it and play it to be sure, but for amps, lead, mikes, etc online is the way to go.

29-04-2010, 09:20	#27
novarock Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 974 Adverts \| Friends	two guitars that I have bought abroad - (im a lefty by the way - American Fender Precision - this was the older model pre 2008, because of it being the older a shop in new york sold it to me for 500 euro. The same guitar has been hanging by its neck in musicmaker for two years - price €1645. - Musicman Stingray - if I went into a shop in dublin and asked for a left handed stingray I would be laughed at. I have never seen one in this country, and if it was here you would be talking €2200 euro easily. its only €1500 from the UK. So from two guitars bought abroad I saved myself €1800. Its common sense really. I do buy all my accessories here. A big thing that X-Music made the mistake on was not havign either the storage or capital to buy up 150 fenders instead of 10..

29-04-2010, 12:36	#29
novarock Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 974 Adverts \| Friends	In this modern internet age, every single business is going to suffer from being undercut by shopping online. Unfortunately for the instrument retailers here, they wont be able to buy in bulk like the bigger shops online. The more they can buy up the more they can reduce the price by. X-Music should have a shop quarter the size and a huge warehouse. And they never pushed the online business as much as they should. Another massive factor is the lack of options. Im not going to find what I want here. 3/4 of what I own, I would never have found in Ireland.

29-04-2010, 12:52	#30
punchdrunk Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,959 Adverts \| Friends	the fact you can't even buy a zvex pedal in an Irish bricks and mortar shop says alot,I mean the company has been around 15 years now? they're not even really boutique anymore they are mass production!